18yo - No HS Diploma Yet

[HD Dad]

Washington State

re: Parenting Plan:

3.13 TERMINATION OF SUPPORT. Support shall be paid until the children reach the age of 18 or as long as the children remain(s) enrolled in high school, whichever occurs last, except as otherwise provided below in Paragraph 3.14.

3.14 POST SECONDARY EDUCATION SUPPORT. The right to petition for post secondary support is reserved, provided that the right is excercised before support terminates as set forth in paragraph 3.13

My Son turned 18yo in February 2007. He was scheduled to graduate June of 2007. He basically flunked a grade while attending "alternative" programs such as "running start", "head start", alternative DIY at home schools...wasn't the programs fault. He is a smart kid but very lazy and his Mom takes a "hands off" approach with him. He is behind due to this laziness and not due to disabilities.

The program he is in now, as far as I know, is "Head Start". Talking to his counselor in vague generalities (I can't access his records) he can get an Associates Degree BEFORE he gets his High School Degree. (I guess the "deal" with this is as long as he doesn't have a HS Degree the state gives him free books....not that I care). What I DO care about is that I might be supporting this Adult, for who knows how long, as he gets his Associates Degree FIRST and THEN his HS Degree. Last I heard he MIGHT be done with both in December of 2007.

Q's:

Since he is not in a "High School" and over 18yo do I have to pay for him? The program he is in he CAN get a HS degree but it is not a High School.

He is "off" for the Summer. Do I owe support?

Can I not pay in lew of getting his records? I don't even know how he is doing in the program.

How would the Court look at this? This is the most important question.

General comments?


HD Dad


PS I would like to post this in the "Washington" section but when I go to that sub-forum none of the issues come up. I have a login. Is login and registration one and the same?   Thank You.

[HD Dad]

Update:

Written to my Son (below). Sent Registered mail. His Mom got a CC on the letter sent Registered mail. Both received. I have not gotten anything back.

I suspect he did not go to school in the Spring. 18yo on 2/16/07. I have not paid CHSUP for July yet. What should I do? Can I withhold CHSUP in being that both he and his Mom are in violation of the RCW? How would the courts look at this?


Son,                                                                          June 18, 2007

I have emailed you several times. I have asked you both verbally and via email for your school records.

Due to the fact you are over the age of 18, your Court mandated support hinges on the fact of whether or not you are fruitfully making progress toward your High School Diploma.

Please send me records that prove you have been enrolled, attending and passing courses that have the goal of you obtaining a High School Diploma. Something that covers all the time between now and when you last attended High School. Include cumulative credits up to now. I need something official.

Please let me know at your earliest convenience but no later than June 28, 2007.

Thank You,

Dad


RCW 26.09.225 Access to child's education and health care records.

(1) Each parent shall have full and equal access to the education and health care records of the child absent a court order to the contrary. Neither parent may veto the access requested by the other parent.

(2) Educational records are limited to academic, attendance, and disciplinary records of public and private schools in all grades kindergarten through twelve and any form of alternative school for all periods for which child support is paid or the child is the dependent in fact of the parent requesting access to the records.

(3) Educational records of postsecondary educational institutions are limited to enrollment and academic records necessary to determine, establish, or continue support ordered pursuant to RCW 26.19.090. [1991 sp.s. c 28 § 3; 1990 1st ex.s. c 2 § 18; 1987 c 460 § 17.]

[Ref]

Why aren't you allowed access to his records? Do you not have joint legal? Is is specifically mentioned in your parenting agreement? Is the school not Federally Funded?

If you have joint legal, it is not specifically mentioned, and the school is Federally funded, then you do have rights to get the information that you need.

The quote that you put at the bottom of the letter is the law for schools and doctors to follow not your son or ex. If you ARE legally allowed access to the records and are being denied, let us know. Many of us had to go through the hoops to get the schools to comply.

If I were you I would file a motion to compel, or even file to close your CS case. Let them prove that he deserves to be supported. Go to the courthouse and ask for the forms to close your CS case.

Worst case scenario that I can think of is that you file to close the cs case. BM shows you that he is in school still. You drop the case.

If you really think he is no longer in school at all, I don't see anything wrong with not making anymore payments until they prove otherwise. Keep the $ in a savings account incase you are wrong though.

It seems if your kid didn't go to school in the Spring, then you are never going to be bound to pay for college.

One side note though, why did you deal with your son about this? It doesn't look good that you sent him that letter instead of just sending it to his mom.

Sorry about the rushed nature of the reply. I'm at work.
 
Ref

[HD Dad]

Joint...Yes.

Son is in Community College and doing "Head Start". Believe it or not when they are in these programs the CHILD (even if minor) has to sign release form to let the parents see their progress. Most of the time the students WANT to go to these programs and if they are a minor and refuse to do the release the parents pull them out.

In my case he is 18yo....though, per the law I am entitled. His mother could care less...just long as she gets the $932/mo CHSUP she is happy.

This has been a very long struggle.

How would the Judge view me if I quit paying with my own, personal, "just cause" reason? In Washington State I believe you have to petition the Court to quit paying CHSUP. This way the BM can sue you (has notice) for  Post Secondary Ed support (PSES). This support can go until they are 23yo.

One cannot use logic. One has to think how the Court thinks. The rules for Non-Cohabitives is much more restrictive that Cohabitives. Cohabitives can decide on how much  PSES to give....if any at all. For divorced folks like me I have no choice. This is Washington State you know.......Fathers are only money machines here per the Courts view.

HDBD

[Ref]

Does your parenting agreement have anything in it as far as your rights to information related to your child? If it does, post it word for word.

Ref

[mistoffolees]

>Why aren't you allowed access to his records? Do you not have
>joint legal? Is is specifically mentioned in your parenting
>agreement? Is the school not Federally Funded?

Unfortunately, with the latest privacy rules, parents can't get their adult children's school records without the kid's express, written permission.

I paid for my SD to go to college and wanted a copy of her report card. No way. I asked for them to send me a copy of her financial statement to make sure we had paid everything due. Not a chance. They DID, however, send us the bill when it was due. So we could pay the bill, but not receive a receipt showing that it was paid.

Apparently, they're not allowed to give out ANYTHING to anyone except the student.

Wierd, but true.

[HD Dad]

No it does not. But the RCW's do and they hold as much, or more, weight than the PP.

[HD Dad]

There should be laws on the books in your state that allows you records as far as course load, attendance, grades go. In Washington there are laws as such.

[mistoffolees]

>There should be laws on the books in your state that allows
>you records as far as course load, attendance, grades go. In
>Washington there are laws as such.

I would be surprised if they're still in effect. There are new Federal privacy laws (last few  years) which trump state laws. We searched pretty thoroughly and it was quite clear that the schools (both daughters) could not release information to us.

[HD Dad]

Yes. This is true but in order for children at any age to receive support THEY are bound by giving out what the states requires them to give out. If not then they don't get support.

[mistoffolees]

>Yes. This is true but in order for children at any age to
>receive support THEY are bound by giving out what the states
>requires them to give out. If not then they don't get
>support.

Bound by who? Neither the state nor the college (nor your local divorce judge) can overrule the Federal privacy laws.

Yes, you can get your divorce decree to say that you don't pay without the information, but that does not allow the school to give out the information. It simply requires the student to give the information if they want support. Your divorce court can NOT tell the school to ignore Federal privacy laws.

[HD Dad]

Mistofoless,

It appears you have been through a lot of pain on this topic and I am sorry for this. If the laws are not worth the paper that they are written on then it is what it is. I can ONLY quote what it is, or appears to be, in the state of Washington. I am ignorant of laws of other states.

This is what the Washington State law says:

RCW 26.09.225 Access to child's education and health care records.

(1) Each parent shall have full and equal access to the education and health care records of the child absent a court order to the contrary. Neither parent may veto the access requested by the other parent.

(2) Educational records are limited to academic, attendance, and disciplinary records of public and private schools in all grades kindergarten through twelve and any form of alternative school for all periods for which child support is paid or the child is the dependent in fact of the parent requesting access to the records.

(3) Educational records of postsecondary educational institutions are limited to enrollment and academic records necessary to determine, establish, or continue support ordered pursuant to RCW 26.19.090. <1991 sp.s. c 28 § 3; 1990 1st ex.s. c 2 § 18; 1987 c 460 § 17.>

[spinner]

I would file for a CS hearing asking to stop CS, ...
she'll need to come up with the proof

[HelpingHands]

I would file to terminate the child support and quote those statutes. The other party will then have to produce sufficient evidence showing that this child is still enrolled, correct? You will show that you've requested the documentation with no success and therefore believe that the child no longer attends school  because they have provided you with no verification.

What will happen if you withheld payments(I would probably put it in an escrow account with the court)? They'd have to go to court to prove the child is still in school and should still receive payments, correct? Can you provide copies of your child's withdrawl request?

[lucky]

Odd, isn't it?  I worked in the business office of the local state university for about 2 years and I don't know how many parents called for info and ended up royally pissed off at me because I couldn't give them any.

Odder yet?  If a parent called to pay the tuition bill by credit card, I could take the credit card information from them but [em]could not[/em] give them the amount I'd just charged to their card.  We all told them anyway (damned if I'd pay for something when I didn't know how much it was and I wasn't about to expect someone else to do it either), but could have lost our jobs if students had complained.

[em]Lucky

Lead your life so you wouldn't be ashamed to sell the family parrot to the town gossip.
- Will Rogers[em]

[HD Dad]

Helping Hands,

Good advice.

Another Topic:

I am trying to get on the Washington State Forum but when I go there I cannot get any of the threads to appear....as I do here.

SPARC Mangagement has been very helpful in responding to my emails. Solutions. Sorry if this isn't the place for this......I really want to get to my States Forum. Can't get any of the states forums to come up.

[mistoffolees]

First, most of those statues apply to high school. Since your child is now in college, they're not going to apply.

The last one does apply to post-secondary, but it's dated 1991. I suspect that you'll find that the federal laws have trumped them unless you have a court order to the contrary.

I could be wrong, though. You'll probably have to see an attorney to get the facts.

A less expensive alternative would be to send the college a copy of #3 (ignore #1 and 2 since they apply to grades K-12) along with a request for the records. They'll either send you the records or tell you why they can't. That will save you research.

[mistoffolees]

>Odd, isn't it?  I worked in the business office of the local
>state university for about 2 years and I don't know how many
>parents called for info and ended up royally pissed off at me
>because I couldn't give them any.
>
>Odder yet?  If a parent called to pay the tuition bill by
>credit card, I could take the credit card information from
>them but [em]could not[/em] give them the amount I'd
>just charged to their card.  We all told them anyway (damned
>if I'd pay for something when I didn't know how much it was
>and I wasn't about to expect someone else to do it either),
>but could have lost our jobs if students had complained.
>
>[em]Lucky

Yes, I always thought it was odd, but who says that Federal laws need to make any sense?

I understand the student's right to privacy, but it seems to me that they earn that right when they become independent - not before. As long as they're living in my household and I'm paying for their education, I should be able to see their grades and financial records.

Of course, Washington never asked my opinion on the matter.

[Kitty C.]

......and that is if the child/adult signs a release of information allowing the parent to have access.  This is what DS's HS asked us to do if DS wanted me to be involved (which he did, of course).  Without it, they couldn't give me ANYTHING.

[mistoffolees]

>......and that is if the child/adult signs a release of
>information allowing the parent to have access.  This is what
>DS's HS asked us to do if DS wanted me to be involved (which
>he did, of course).  Without it, they couldn't give me
>ANYTHING.

Absolutely. The adult child can always sign permission.

In practice, it's often more convenient for them to get their own copy and send you a copy if you don't have any concerns about falsification (my ex-step-daughter once changed the grades on her transcript, so we made her sign permission for the school to send US the grades).

[4honor]

In WA you must pay CS until you get a court to say you can stop. Now if one is smart, they get the court to order it in the first parenting plan to stop at a certain date.

If you take this to court, since the child is over 18, you will have a significant advantage to having it stopped either immediately, or by next June 30. Seems to me the law used to state or until age 19... but that may have gone out teh window with post secondary support laws.

She did not file for continuing suupport until AFTER he turned 18 and therefore may have lost her chance. That is what happened to my brother with my nephew.  Bro filed after Son was to graduate. He was already 18. Son did not graduate, but was doing a GED and some other program. Bro filed to end support. BM counterfiled for Post-secondary education and BM lost her motion, cause son had not CONTINUED in school, AND was an adult already with no mental or physical defect.

[tigger]

eom

[mistoffolees]

Presumably because, as has been explained, schools can not give out information about  children once they're over 18 because of Federal privacy laws.

That's not just my experience - someone who worked in an educational institution affirmed it.