Terminating mothers parental rights

[mamaw]

My husband and I have custody of our grandson, who will be 5 in August, since he was just over a year old, and we've had full care of him since he was 4 months old. His father, our son, is somewhat involved, but his mother has never really been around. She regularly goes months without calling, and it's been since the first of January since she's seen him. When she does show up he's glad - not happy - to see her and his behavior goes down the drain. Otherwise he's a happy well adjusted child.
Our grandson rarely talks about her and when he does it's not to ask why she doesn't come around. More of a comparitive statement like "mommy & daddy have brown hair like you and papaw do ..."
Looking at the terms of abandonment in Ohio she fits the bill on at least four of them.
My question is, can we start proceedings or does it have to be her that starts the ball rolling?
We feel if it were to happen then sooner is better than later. We just aren't sure where to go with it. We're prepared for the emotional toll this may have on him, but we don't feel there's really any emotional tie there.

[backwardsbike]

You don't say what the age of the aprents is.  I'm going to haard a guess here and say that they may be quite young?  The reason why I mention it is that perhaps there is a chance yet for her to turn this around.  Perhps she is immature?

It is said that in order to be successful a child must have roots as well as wings.  In other words- he needs to know where he comes from- even if ita a place that others find distatesful or in some other way not ideal. He has a mother and a father.  I am sorry for the child that apparently neither parent stepped up to the plate for him.  But that doesn't mean that the same pattern will prevail in the future.

As your grandson grows he may become curious about mom.  He may ask for visits.  She may come around and requestt he same adn they could end up with a realtionship of sorts someday.

I htink it would be a big mistake to terminate her rights at this point in time.  IS anyone in touch with her?  Maybe somebody should encourage her to make more frequent contact.  Not for her but for the child's sake.  it may not seem like it- but she is an important part of his life.

I am a NCM.  My NC kids are 18 and 14.5.  I have b een alienated fom them by thier father hwo made my time withthem so difficult that for the time being I have allowed vistations to stop.  I beleive it is best for the hcildren as well as for me.  I have been thru to many unfounded reports to cys, trips to court which produced nothig but legal bills, custody evalautions, vissits to a GAL etc etc.  But I still call my children at a minimum once per week and they know they are welcome to see me whenever they wish.  I would hope your grandson could have the same.  HE is sure to have questions as he gets older. Please rethingk the termination of parental rights.

[mistoffolees]

I guess the question is, 'what do you hope to gain?' Why is it better for the child to be permanently prevented from seeing his mother?

While he doesn't see her often now, it's probably still better than not seeing her at all. Furthermore, she may become more involved later on (it happens).

As I see it, you're going to put the kid through a traumatic experience, destroy his relationship with his mother (even though it's not what you think it should be) and possibly open a can of worms that could blow up on you (I've seen enough of the court system to know that it's not entirely outside the realm of possibility for her to challenge your action and use it as proof that you're trying to keep her from seeing her son - de facto parental alienation - and she could even end up with custody. Not likely, but not impossible, either). More likely is that she could claim that you're trying to keep her from seeing her son and filing a parenting plan which would undoubtedly give her more time than she has now.

Since there's no mention of abuse, I don't see how doing that could possibly bring anything positive to the child. Drop the idea.

[mamaw]

Thank you for your bluntness, I do appreciate directness.
I don't want to terminate it, there's much more than space allows here to get into. She has been given every opportunity to be in his life, when she does choose to be here I have never said no to any visit because I do feel that while she's not a mommy, she is his mother. She has two more kids with another man and since they, husband and kids, came into the picture, what time she has spent with him is more along the lines of "we're in town, thought we'd stop by". Not much at making this child a priority, which she never has. She actually took us to court to get custody back, so I do know some of the court system on that respect, but there was so much against her they dismissed it. 1) She filed for custody change after not seeing or calling him for 3 months, then went another 2 months with no contact and only came back for the court hearing, then was 2 days after court before she asked to see him and she was staying 10 minutes away, and that's just the tip of the iceburg. As we see it she's the one that has already terminated her parental rights by the choices she has made and continues to make. The last time she had him overnight he told me after he got home that he cried himself to sleep because he didn't want to stay with her.
I'm trying to look at this in all ways, that's why I posted this question because I'm torn, truly torn for his sake, not hers.
You have raised some issues that hadn't crossed my mind yet, and I thank you for that.
There'se no physical abuse, but they smoke and he is allergic to it, gets deathly ill and she/they won't stop smoking around him, so abuse, yes there is.

[mamaw]

She is mid 20's. She has been given every chance in the book to step up to the plate where he's concerned. When she asks to get him I have never said no. Last time she had him he came home and informed me that he had cried himself to sleep because he didn't want to stay with her. Please keep in mind we do not speak ill of her around him. Any thoughts he has of her or will have of her will be of his own decisions or her making. She always has an excuse on why she didn't call, all are VERY lame, I feel if she really wanted to communicate with him she'd find a way come hell or high water.
I truly want them to have some kind of relationship, but she's made it very plain that she doesn't want it.
She has two more kids with another man and when they, husband and kids, came into the picture she all but dropped out of sight in his life. When they do visit it's more along the lines of "we're in town, thought we'd drop by". She has not, nor has she ever made him a priority.
It would appear with the choices she's made that she has already terminated parental rights by just not being in his life, and we were contemplating making it a legal thing. Or maybe the threat of it might just kick her into gear.
FYI she did take us to court to get custody back BUT she had gone 3 months with no contact prior to this then went another 2 months afterward with no contact. She saw him only after the court proceeding but that took two days and she was only 10 minutes away. There was so much against her that they dismissed it and since then what little she did interact with him has ceased to exist. This is the first of July and she's not seen him since the first of January and spoke with him briefly the first of May.
We don't want to terminate, that's why I posted this question, to get feedback on what we may not have concidered yet. If things were only to get better, even a little, then we would have some hope, but after five years and it's only going down hill, it's hard to think positive where she's concerned.
Thank you for your insight, it has given us some areas to think on. We're not rushing into this, it's still in the thinking stage.
For what it's worth, my son - his father, feels that this little guy will choose to live with him when he's 13 and seems willing to wait for that time. They do have a good relationship. If nothing else, he at least calls every weekend.

[janM]

I would let it be, as well.

I am in Ohio too, and we had our grandson (son's boy) for 18 months. We had POA through the court but our son retained legal custody. His exgf gave him custody in '02.

I know what you mean about the frustration at the lack of interest. The boy's mother saw him more than our son, but only because she knew I would take him up there. She still sees very little of him and owes a ton of child support (that is in the courts now and is another story).

You are fortunate to have custody, as a non-parent. I forget, did they agree to it, or did you win it in court?

I agree that it doesn't sound as if she could win it back at this time. But, what about your son? How often does he see him? Does he support him? Does mom? I doubt if the court would TPR just one parent. And as far as him thinking the child would choose to live with him at 13, in Ohio he doesn't have that choice. A magistrate will listen to his wishes.

You could consult an attorney on this, but I wouldn't risk it. Dad could fight you for custody, although his track record doesn't sound too good either. Just remember, you are NOT his parents. It's very difficult to TPR and you would have to do it to both parents to adopt (or get their permission).

I believe the standard parenting plan for Ohio has a clause about not exercising parenting time being grounds for changing the plan. Maybe you could try to get her time reduced or supervised visits if they are warranted. Do you have a court-ordered plan now? Is their time spelled out, or just "as agreed" or "reasonable"?

As someone said, it's possible for one or both of them to turn things around. My son went through some hard times but he did come around, get his job back, got a place to live, found a great girl who just became his wife, and has his son back with him. It does happen. Just a question of when, if it does.

The good news is, the longer you have custody, the less likely the court would be to change it. The child is thriving in your care. If mom messes with his head too much, take him to a pshychologist, who could recommend a change in her access to him. TPR is always a last resort with the court.

If you would like some moral (and practical) support, go to these sites:
//www.grandsplace.org
//www.kinsupport.org
They are a great group of grandparents raising grands, and some have adopted.

Enjoy parenting the second time around!

[backwardsbike]

You seem to mention her last visit a lot.  In your post you seem to be upset because the child said he cried himself to sleep because he didn't want to stay with "her".  Well- why would he if he really doesn't know "her"?  WIth a young child and a aprent who has been absent for a considerable time I would start with short outings for ice cream, to the park to play catch etc.  No wonder he cried?

And for mom's part- not siding wiht anyone but playing Devil's Advocate- maybe she thinks she's a failure as a mother?  Her child cried when she did gett o spend time with her.  She may well not understand what is deveolpmentally appropriate ofor a child that age and with the issues involved.

I htink these parents should be given a chance to pull it together for thier child and perhaps you, as the day to day custodial could help that along by learning what is appropriate and helping both your son and the mom do the right things when they are able to do them.  Educate them, help them- not because youthink highly if her but because its important for your grandson to have this relationship even if mom isn't there as conssitently as you think she should be.  Have you ever actaully told her that you wish the child could have that relationship?  Do you ever tell her he mentions her?  You mentioned in your post about what he said about mommy and dadddy both having brown hair.  But SHE doesn't know he said that or even that he noticed it.  DO you ever send her pictures or brief little updates?  They could be the catalyst that gets her back into his life.

I am not making excuese fror her- I'm just looking at things from another angle.  It feel horrible to loose your children.  I have cried a river of tears over the last nine years as mine were alienated from me.  Try as I might to stayin thier lives it was impossible.  I'm not sure what my X and the new step mom say aobut me to the children- perhaps they never speak negatively- but you can darn well bet they never encourage the children to return phone calls, come for a visit or anything of the ort.  And actions speak louder than words.

[mamaw]

Yes, I mention her last visit a lot, because she's never and has never really been around for him so that's all I've got to go on and his reaction to it. It was the first time he mentioned that he had cried and didn't want to stay. Which just plays more into if seeing her is really in his best interest. And it's his best interest that we are interested/concerned in not hers.
I do not feel it's up to me to open the dialog. She's the one that walked away, she knows that she can talk to him/see him any time she asks because she HAS been told, she chooses NOT to make the connection. If you were to hear her 'excuses' you'd truly understand more on that line. It's our responsibility to keep him safe both physically, psychologically and emotionally, and we're questioning whether she fits any of these areas. I'm not saying she won't or wouldn't fit the bill, BUT, since she filed to get custody back then dismissed it, her interest in him has gotten worse. Not on our end, everything stayed the same, get him when you want, talk to him when you want, etc. She's the one that walked even further away.
When my grandson gets older and should he ask to talk to her by all means we will make the call. As I have said she is his mother and any relationship they may have we will be there for him and help him as he needs it.
Don't turn my words around on me, I only mentioned about the brown hair as an example that he doesn't ask WHY mommy isn't here, just mentions things about her in passing.
The bottom line is we are wanting to do what's in his best interest now and in the future.
She and his father willingly signed custody over and it appeared she was relieved to have him off her shoulders.
Our only concern is our grandson and he is a very sensitive child and seeing her really does screw him up emotionally. I had mentioned that his behavior goes down the tubes after she's seen him, we attributed this to lack of guidance/discipline. Our lawyer and GAL stated that he was mad at us for sending him and he was acting out once he got home.
I've not mentioned his father much, he's got a long way to go also, but at least he's making an attempt, which is way more than she's doing.
Based on Ohio stipulations there are around 12 items that indicate abandonment, she's easily 5 of them. So with that, she's already terminated her rights - figuratively speaking.
We do not and will never speak ill of her to him or even around him. We do tell him, if the conversation warrants, that his mommy and daddy love him, he has pictures of his mommy and daddy in his room, not just individual pictures but also of the three of them with her holding him, unfortunately, she's not smiling.
I do not mind you're being the devil's advocate, but it appears to be coming from your own hurt from the trials/problems with your children and how you've been left out of their lives. You obviously WANT to be in their lives and that is the big difference here. She doesn't want to be in her son's life. She's made that perfectly clear from the beginning, because actions do speak louder than words.

[mamaw]

Thank you for the links. We were told that grandparents raising their grandkids used to be a very small part of things, but it's growing leaps and bounds. So, guess we're not in the minority, unfortunately.
I'm not even going to touch on the support part, suffice it to say it's quickly reaching the point that the support department will start proceedings.
Where dad is concerned, he has finally gotten a stable job and has his support caught up. We told both of them that should they want custody back in the future - this was at the very beginning - that they had to prove they could support themselves by keeping a job - the same job - for more than a year, keep a roof over their head, which didn't include living with some one, but having a rent payment, utilities, etc. Once they showed that they would/could take care of their son the way we had/have been that we'd discuss returning custody. Since then they divorced, she's remarried and has two more kids and lives 7 hours away. I don't expect her to see him on a regular basis because of the distance, but for God's sake, she could call. Our grandson never asks to call her, only asks to call his father.
The visitation was set up to be 'as agreed by the parties' and I have never said no unless we were walking out the door or had already made plans. All we've asked for is 24 hour notice, but we're lucky to 2 hours. This was proved during the custody trial when her lawyer tried putting me over a barrel on asking for weekend visitation on a bi-weekly basis and without hesitation I said that's the way it's always been, she's the one that quit getting him. My lawyer's jaw dropped. He later stated 'you really do let them see him when they want, don't you?' My response was/is, they are his parents, they should be in his life. She's chosen not to be.
Don't get me wrong, my son - grandson's father - hasn't been the best either. He lives only 1/2 hour away, can only manage one weekend a month - but he at least calls every weekend, which is better than nothing.
Speaking of my son, I didn't let on that it wasn't going to be as easy as just letting his son become 13 and things would change. But he's convinced he only has to wait, and until then, he's happy with the way things are.
During the custody issue, he told his lawyer, whatever mom and her lawyer want is what I want.
The judge/magistrate we had are very big on keeping families together while at the same time having a parent walk away as she has doesn't bode well with them. As custody trials go we had an open and shut case - truly. She dismissed things the day before it was to be final. My lawyer stated that it was the worst thing she could have done. While she wasn't going to get custody back, she would have at least gotten the 6 weeks mandated out of state visitation. Should she try for custody again, all we have on her will still be in play PLUS the dismissal. I don't think she'll try again.
Now, if our grandson would want to go live with her, then we'd do a trial time, building up the time he's there and should it be something that he felt he really wanted to do, then we'd allow it, presuming he was old/mature enough to actually make a decision like that. If that means going to a psychiatrist then so be it. Because it comes down to the fact that our responsibility is his emotional, psychological and physical well-being. And we take that very serious.
They willingly signed over custody, but still had to go through the courts. We were put under a microscope, etc. Same thing again when she tried to get custody back, microscope all over again, but she was also put under one.
"They" say that all women can be a mother but not all women can be a mommy. I truly feel she fit's that bill. As much as I tried in the past to find some reason why she is the way she is, I have had to remove my rose colored glasses and just accept it. Which is a very hard thing for me, as I can always find the silver lining in an ugly situation, but I can't find it here. Other than she doesn't have custody of him.
I think that somewhere down deep, the reason for doing this may have been that it might be the catalyst that would wake her up. Just the threat of it. But then, we'd be forcing a situation that might ultimately back fire where he's concerned. It boils down to that if she really wants/wanted to be in his life then she would be, period.
This has also been a carthsis for me, to 'vent' my concerns where she's concerned, to total strangers, hoping I'd get some insight from the outer corners. Which I have.
Thank you again for the links, I'll definately be checking into them.

[jenjen]

Why doesnt your son have his child? appears that you have takin the responsibility from both biological parents, so let it be, if you dont mind loveing and raising the child... then do so. dont wait on the biological parents to get it together continue being the childs parents. make sure you have legal custody first and get child support established for the child from both the parents (I bet that will get there attention might even encourage them to be more active) even if you dont think you need the child support, put it away for the childs education etc. you never know what tomorrow may bring, also your son is taking advantage of this stuation as well...so make sure they both have to be responsible for supporting this child. (some tough love is in order).
plus the support money could pay for other activities for the child to keep him busy or a double sccop of his favorite ice cream when he maybe feeling down. just give him as much love as u can and dont feel sorry for him...he is truly blessed in having the best parents in the world!!!   YOU! .....and dont you forget it.

p.s. dont let the biological parents run over you by interfering with your sons daily activities...it's o.k. to say NO we have plans