divorce papers just filed..questions about a father's rights..help or advice, please.!

[cher bear]

 hi..I just came across this place and thought I might be able to find some help here, or at least gather information on what rights we have in our current situation.

Some background: I became involved in the situation 4 years ago, as an aquaintance of his wife..he and I became very good friends.. what resulted was what I would best describe as an emotional affair. We stopped talking for a while, and tried to make what we had at home work. A few months ago, he told her it was over, and six weeks ago he moved in with me, so that she could have time to go through the house (mobile home) and pack things up before he gets it ready to sell.

 From the first day, she exhibited a lot of out of control behavior that was dismissed or made excuses for because we knew she was hurting and felt guilty. However, I want to say that I do not feel I am the reason for the marriage ending. When he was with her, he didn't care about his life. He was living day to day to keep the peace and keep her happy. The house they lived in was in filth, and she refused to do anything about it. He was on medication for depression,  as well as obsessive-compulsive disorder that caused him to pull his hair out for days on end. All of this has stopped since he left; he is a completely different person.
 
The issues we are dealing with now, are the children and money. She has largely refused to let him see the children, other times she says he can pick them up, just  to get him over to the house and start a fight, then refuse him to leave with the kids. She has been telling them for the past six weeks that he abandoned them, left them for a new family, and that I stole there daddy away from them. He received the divorce papers 5 days ago. She is refusing joint custody, and has asked for visitation to be (and i quote) "a few hours or a day, no overnights, not to be allowed at his girlfriend's home or in her presence." At first I thought this was absurd, but while researching online, i've found that it is possible she can get away with the restriction. Especially since she has the kids repeating the things she has told them to say (that their dad isn't their family anymore, he has a new family, i took him away from them and they don't want to be around me). His children are 7 and 10. Yesterday the 7 year old told him that I have done this to two families before (one of her lies).  Is there anything we can do now, and what is the likelihood this will work for her in court. We live in CA. Also, we have several voicemails left by her, and a few letters as well..most of the voicemails are her calling me a whore, a goddam f*cking whore, a whore who spread her legs for a married man, over and over..also, saying that my two daughters who are 7 &10 will grow up to be whores just like their whore mother, and be pregnant at 12. Last week we happened to be in the school parking lot at the same time, she flipped me off, and then yelled (in front of her children) something about me being a whore, repeatedly. After that she left 2 voice mails that she will always call me a whore, and if I don't like it that's too bad. Most of the voicemails also talk about how he better give her money, that all his kids need him for is money, and in one she says he will never see his kids again, that if I ever answer his phone again it will be the end of him and his kids, and once again, he will never see them again (3 times). Can we use these against her, or to refute what she is saying and what the kids are repeating?

As for the money, she can work but chooses not to. He is still paying all the bills and giving her money to live on. This leaves him with about $500 for himself. Does he have to keep paying for the car she drives, her insurance, health insurance, etc. ? He doesn't know what his rights are, and he doesn't want to look bad in court. As you can see, we have no money for a lawyer, but do not fall below poverty guidelines to qualify for free help. Another question, if she has been self-employed (she works when she wants as a clown for children's parties) but never claimed it for tax purposes and left it out of the divorce papers, can we do anything about that.?

 Our main concern is for the children..we want what is best for them..any information or help would be appreciated.

Thanks so much. :)

Cheryl

[Jade]

>
> hi..I just came across this place and thought I might be able
>to find some help here, or at least gather information on what
>rights we have in our current situation.
>
>Some background: I became involved in the situation 4 years
>ago, as an aquaintance of his wife..he and I became very good
>friends.. what resulted was what I would best describe as an
>emotional affair. We stopped talking for a while, and tried to
>make what we had at home work. A few months ago, he told her
>it was over, and six weeks ago he moved in with me, so that
>she could have time to go through the house (mobile home) and
>pack things up before he gets it ready to sell.


So, basically, he cheated on his wife.  And you are the other woman.  



>
> From the first day, she exhibited a lot of out of control
>behavior that was dismissed or made excuses for because we
>knew she was hurting and felt guilty. However, I want to say
>that I do not feel I am the reason for the marriage ending.
>When he was with her, he didn't care about his life. He was
>living day to day to keep the peace and keep her happy. The
>house they lived in was in filth, and she refused to do
>anything about it. He was on medication for depression,  as
>well as obsessive-compulsive disorder that caused him to pull
>his hair out for days on end. All of this has stopped since he
>left; he is a completely different person.



Uh, they all say that.  It's how they get women to sleep with them.  BTW, OCD doesn't just disappear overnight.  It can sometimes hide, but it doesn't go away.  

And if you weren't there, he would probably still be married to her or cheating with someone else.



>
>The issues we are dealing with now, are the children and
>money. She has largely refused to let him see the children,
>other times she says he can pick them up, just  to get him
>over to the house and start a fight, then refuse him to leave
>with the kids. She has been telling them for the past six
>weeks that he abandoned them, left them for a new family, and
>that I stole there daddy away from them. He received the
>divorce papers 5 days ago. She is refusing joint custody, and
>has asked for visitation to be (and i quote) "a few hours or a
>day, no overnights, not to be allowed at his girlfriend's home
>or in her presence." At first I thought this was absurd, but
>while researching online, i've found that it is possible she
>can get away with the restriction. Especially since she has
>the kids repeating the things she has told them to say (that
>their dad isn't their family anymore, he has a new family, i
>took him away from them and they don't want to be around me).
>His children are 7 and 10. Yesterday the 7 year old told him
>that I have done this to two families before (one of her
>lies).  Is there anything we can do now, and what is the
>likelihood this will work for her in court. We live in CA.
>Also, we have several voicemails left by her, and a few
>letters as well..most of the voicemails are her calling me a
>whore, a goddam f*cking whore, a whore who spread her legs for
>a married man, over and over..also, saying that my two
>daughters who are 7 &10 will grow up to be whores just like
>their whore mother, and be pregnant at 12. Last week we
>happened to be in the school parking lot at the same time, she
>flipped me off, and then yelled (in front of her children)
>something about me being a whore, repeatedly. After that she
>left 2 voice mails that she will always call me a whore, and
>if I don't like it that's too bad. Most of the voicemails also
>talk about how he better give her money, that all his kids
>need him for is money, and in one she says he will never see
>his kids again, that if I ever answer his phone again it will
>be the end of him and his kids, and once again, he will never
>see them again (3 times). Can we use these against her, or to
>refute what she is saying and what the kids are repeating?





Somehow, I don't see a judge giving him custody while he is living with the other woman.  He most definitely should be able to see the kids.  And you most definitely should stay away from them at this time.  Since it is doubtful that your relationship will last (usually doesn't).  The children don't need to be any more confused than they are.  Let them adjust and heal.  Being around the other woman isn't going to accomplish that.

But he does need to get clear and specific visitation spelled out.  And you shouldn't be around when he does see his children.

>
>As for the money, she can work but chooses not to. He is still
>paying all the bills and giving her money to live on. This
>leaves him with about $500 for himself. Does he have to keep
>paying for the car she drives, her insurance, health
>insurance, etc. ? He doesn't know what his rights are, and he
>doesn't want to look bad in court. As you can see, we have no
>money for a lawyer, but do not fall below poverty guidelines
>to qualify for free help. Another question, if she has been
>self-employed (she works when she wants as a clown for
>children's parties) but never claimed it for tax purposes and
>left it out of the divorce papers, can we do anything about
>that.?
>
> Our main concern is for the children..we want what is best
>for them..any information or help would be appreciated

>
>Thanks so much. :)
>
>Cheryl

It's not easy finding a job that will support 2 children. For all you know, she is looking.

BTW, all of those expenses you mentioned are his obligations until they come to a divorce settlement.  Judges really frown on the status quo being changed.  And if the credit rating is really bad, then the mother may have a hard time (and the father, too) finding a decent place to live.  Or even a job.  Because some employers will not hire someone with a poor credit rating (the company I work for is one of them).

[cher bear]

 thanks jade, for an honest response.


Truly, I did expect to get some responses such as yours, but I am trying to be as honest as possible about the situation.

Yes, he cheated on his wife.. I'm not offering excuses. However, there are other issues involved. In California, it is a no fault divorce. Which means it really is not a major factor. He and I have never been around the children together, since this happened, or at any time in a romantic way. But I have been involved as a friend and concerned party for a long time before this, so his children do know me and have thought fondly of me until his wife began bad mouthing me to them. She has gone so far as to have the 10 year old tell his grandma I tried to run them over twice, after the incident of her calling me a whore in the parking lot. I love his children and would never do anything to put them in harm's way. I have never so much as said a foul word to her, only once asking her to stop calling and harassing him. My main concern is parental alienation, which after reading up on it, seems to be exactly what she is aiming for.

As for his mental instability, it's not something he made up for my benefit. As I said before I have been involved for several years, taken him to the hospital and doctors for it. I've seen it firsthand. When he went on disability because of it, his work refused to pay, after a home study stated his home life was contributing to his condition by more than 51%. This was on a GOOD day.


I don't believe he would be with someone else were it not for me, but you are entitled to your opinion and I understand it. I grew up with a mother who jumped from man to man, and a few stepfathers who were terrible womanizers. I stuck it out with the same person for twelve years trying to make it work, maybe just for the sake of Not being that person. I'm just trying to say, I understand why you think this, and everyone thinks there situation is different. It's irrelevant.

The last thing I want is to force myself into his children's lives. My worry is that if it is specifically stated that they aren't allowed in my home or presence 1. This limits his ability to spend time with them as he lives here2.I have read that it is much harder to go back and change something in the agreement, than to get it right the first time 3.If (when) we do stay together, we would like to have his children be a part of our life. how will her doing this affect things down the line.? If both parents were playing fair, it would be different. He has never said a harsh word about her to his children.

neither one of us wants to take the children from her. we both realize that she is hurting, and just want her to think of what is best for the children. It is not fair that she is keeping them from him, and telling them he abandoned them for a new family. It is not right that she is verbally abusive towards myself and my daughters. Nor is it right that she tells them lies and then has them repeat these lies to other people. She is phsycologically abusing them. She stands next to the phone while he is talking to them, and repeats to them that he left them for a new family, he doesn't want to see them, etc.. By destroying the image of their father in their eyes, she is damaging them, their self esteem and self-worth.She is making them hateful because she hates us, and it needs to stop.

The money situation: I understand your point and agree, to an extent. She was supposed to be living with her mother for the time being, but after an incident when the papers were served (she came to my home and tried to assault him as her mother was serving him the papers) her mother has grown frustrated. She came back to their home and changed the locks, and refuses to allow him entry. As for her working, if she chose to she could be making $600 on a weekend.  That's as much as he makes in a month, after taxes. She chose to work less as he began earning more money at the job he has now. Again, he doesn't have a problem supporting his children or even helping her out temporarily, but at this point he is paying for everything, she is demanding more and more when he has virtually nothing for himself as it is, and ostracizing him from his children as well. I don't know what's fair, but this sure doesn't seem to be.



Does anyone have any experience in a similar situation...or advice that might actually help us resolve this easier and at least know what his rights are.?

[Jade]

So he has been involved with you for YEARS?  

Sorry, but I don't see judge not granting the mother's request that the children not be around the other woman while her husband is still married to her.  

How he sees the kids is up to him.  And something he should have thought about BEFORE he moved in with the other woman.  

And you shouldn't be around the kids at all at this point.  They need time to adjust and heal.  And they need their father's undivided attention when he is with them.  You would just be in the way.  

Do I think the mother should bad mouth the father to the kids?  No.  But I do understand why she would not want them around the other woman.  You know, the one that he left broke up his family for.  

His best bet is to talk to an attorney and keep you out of the negotiations as you have nothing to do with the divorce other than being the other woman.

And while adultery may not have a bearing on the financial settlement in CA, it just may have a big impact on the custody side of the divorce.  Again, a lawyer is his best bet.  And any good lawyer would tell him to keep you away from the kids until after the divorce.  

[orais007]

I am in a situation similar but it's my wife that is seeing another man man as we are going through our divorce.  My two daughters 3 and 8 have met him and spent time with my wife and him as a couple, my wife sneaks him into her home after the girls go to sleep and he sneaks out just before they wake up, the other night my 3yr old woke up in the middle of the night to find him sitting in the livingroom (outside her room) alone while her mother slept upstairs.  I am very upset over this especially because I've met so many women that have told me how at one time in their life someone (stepfather, friend of family) molested them in one form or another.  I spoke to an attorney (I live in CA) that was a former Deputy Dist. Attorney about the situation and she said there really is nothing that can be done unless I can prove harm to my children.  What is sad is that you have to wait till something terrible happens before something gets done.
My point is that here in CA, the courts really don't care who you are seeing or how unless or until you can prove a danger to the children, and from what I'm told has no bearing on custody.
I do go out but have made the effort of doing so without my children knowing or meeting the person I see (but statistics are very low that a woman would molest a little girl), let alone sneak her in while they are sleeping.

[mistoffolees]

I think your position is a little extreme. While the situation makes the guy look like a schmuck, that doesn't necessarily have any impact on his parenting ability. The fact that this woman has been around for many years indicates that he's not hopping from one bed to another.

The court realizes that people move on with their lives and eventually fall in love again. As long as it's a stable relationship with a good person, it shouldn't destroy your case by default. In fact, in my case, it was made clear that the court won't penalize you for having made a mistake (a different mistake in my case), as long as you've made an effort to learn from your mistake and put the kids' needs first.

It would certainly be better if they had met AFTER the divorce, but after a number of years, I don't see it as that big a deal.  I agree, however, that he should go by what his attorney tells him because this depends on lot on the judges and precedent in a particular area.

[cher bear]

jade..what I meant was that I was involved as a friend of his, and an aquaintance of hers, for years before it took this turn. Our children have played together and her children have been in my home many times. When the relationship between he and I became what i felt was inappropriate, we pulled ourselves back from the situation, and we both tried to make what we had at home work (I have never been married, but was with the same partner for 12 years, since I was 18). We have been friends at a distance for almost two years, before the most recent turn of events. He told her it was over before I became involved with him again on a romantic level. She had already left.

As for him moving in with me, it was either that or live in his car. He wasn't left with any other options, financially.

What you and a lot of people fail to recognize is that he left her, but he did not abandon his children. It is not right that she tell them that. It is not right that she keep them from him, and tell them he doesn't want to see them. I do not want to push myself on them, and I never felt the need to be with him when he sees them until the divorce is final. Then she began making up their minds for them. If they are going to get one side, of her telling them I took their dad away, that we don't want them around and that I am a whore (yes she has told them that point blank), it's only right they should be able to see both sides and know that I am still the same person they knew before. I just want her to play fair, and I have no problem stepping back.

She wants him to agree to them not being in my home and presence for 1 year after the divorce is final. It seems unreasonable, considering that the divorce by itself could drag on several months. Does anyone know how likely a judge is to grant her that, if he disagrees..and what if the kids are repeating her rhetoric.? I think it is likely the courts will see she has put those thoughts in their heads, but I'd hate for him to lose more by risking it. He's getting the impression she might want to settle, because she is worried about all those messages she left. However, she won't budge on that one issue.

orais..I understand your feelings, as I have 2 daughters of my own, 7 and 10. It is truly not my intention to do the children any harm, or be inappropriate around them in any way. I just feel what she is doing is damaging the relationship with their father, and my being able to have a nurturing relationship with them in the future. I want it all to stop, and if not, I want them to be able to see both sides so they are not filled with hate by the time they do enter our lives and see us as a couple. Thanks for your response. I was under the impression that CA is more lenient when it comes to these sort of issues, and you confirmed.

mistoffolees..at this point, we have not been able to secure an attorney..she still wants to come to an agreement, but isn't budging on certain things. I agree with you, it's not the best of circumstances. He has always been a great dad to his kids, and she knows that is the only way to hurt him at this point. I am a single mom, maintain my own home, have a vehicle, a job that I can support myself with..I understand her dislike for me and not wanting me around her children, but she has no basis for it that will stand in court, other than getting the children to say things. She has tried to provoke me into some sort of conflict many times so that she could use it against me, but I have not budged. It is very unfair to the children, and that's what hurts me.

[mistoffolees]

You need to get an attorney.

One of the issues you're facing is parental alienation. Trying to deal with that on your own is extremely difficult. You need a good attorney to try to slow that down.

To answer your question, there ARE plenty of examples where the court will rule that a spouse can't cohabit with someone of the opposite sex when the kids are in the house, so it could happen. (Of course, make sure that any rule applies to both sides). So you could find that you'd have to move out when the kids are there.

[Jade]

>
>jade..what I meant was that I was involved as a friend of his,
>and an aquaintance of hers, for years before it took this
>turn. Our children have played together and her children have
>been in my home many times. When the relationship between he
>and I became what i felt was inappropriate, we pulled
>ourselves back from the situation, and we both tried to make
>what we had at home work (I have never been married, but was
>with the same partner for 12 years, since I was 18). We have
>been friends at a distance for almost two years, before the
>most recent turn of events. He told her it was over before I
>became involved with him again on a romantic level. She had
>already left.
>
>As for him moving in with me, it was either that or live in
>his car. He wasn't left with any other options, financially.
>
>What you and a lot of people fail to recognize is that he left
>her, but he did not abandon his children. It is not right that
>she tell them that. It is not right that she keep them from
>him, and tell them he doesn't want to see them. I do not want
>to push myself on them, and I never felt the need to be with
>him when he sees them until the divorce is final. Then she
>began making up their minds for them. If they are going to get
>one side, of her telling them I took their dad away, that we
>don't want them around and that I am a whore (yes she has told
>them that point blank), it's only right they should be able to
>see both sides and know that I am still the same person they
>knew before. I just want her to play fair, and I have no
>problem stepping back.
>
>She wants him to agree to them not being in my home and
>presence for 1 year after the divorce is final. It seems
>unreasonable, considering that the divorce by itself could
>drag on several months. Does anyone know how likely a judge is
>to grant her that, if he disagrees..and what if the kids are
>repeating her rhetoric.? I think it is likely the courts will
>see she has put those thoughts in their heads, but I'd hate
>for him to lose more by risking it. He's getting the
>impression she might want to settle, because she is worried
>about all those messages she left. However, she won't budge on
>that one issue.
>
>orais..I understand your feelings, as I have 2 daughters of my
>own, 7 and 10. It is truly not my intention to do the children
>any harm, or be inappropriate around them in any way. I just
>feel what she is doing is damaging the relationship with their
>father, and my being able to have a nurturing relationship
>with them in the future. I want it all to stop, and if not, I
>want them to be able to see both sides so they are not filled
>with hate by the time they do enter our lives and see us as a
>couple. Thanks for your response. I was under the impression
>that CA is more lenient when it comes to these sort of issues,
>and you confirmed.
>
>mistoffolees..at this point, we have not been able to secure
>an attorney..she still wants to come to an agreement, but
>isn't budging on certain things. I agree with you, it's not
>the best of circumstances. He has always been a great dad to
>his kids, and she knows that is the only way to hurt him at
>this point. I am a single mom, maintain my own home, have a
>vehicle, a job that I can support myself with..I understand
>her dislike for me and not wanting me around her children, but
>she has no basis for it that will stand in court, other than
>getting the children to say things. She has tried to provoke
>me into some sort of conflict many times so that she could use
>it against me, but I have not budged. It is very unfair to the
>children, and that's what hurts me.
>
>

And I didn't say that she was right to keep the children away from their father or badmouth him to them.  

But if I were in her shoes, I wouldn't want YOU around them.  The children are confused and need time to heal and adjust.  You being there isn't going to help them do that.  

If a judge does take what is in the children's best interests, he would put it in the order (along with specific times and days of visits and not leave it vague) that you not be present during the visits while their father is still married.  

And he DID have a choice.  He could have chosen not to cheat.  He could have chosen to talk to his stbx about marriage counseling.  There are always choices in life.  Some better than others.  

And I don't see the situation getting any better while you continue to live in denial about how you being around the children at this point is detrimental to them.  Again, I have to say, they NEED time to heal.  And you aren't going to help with that by being around while they are working through their parents no longer being together.  

[lucky]

I don't agree.

Honestly, not all situations are black and white as you would like them to be, Jade.  This woman has been a friend of the family for years and for her to just "disappear" could possibly cause other bad effects for those kids whose world is already breaking up.

No one, not mom, not dad, not the judge, not the girlfriend - no one can say how this will turn out.  But ALL children need as many people as they can get who love them unconditionally, especially when they're going through crap like this.

If mom shuts the hell up about badmouthing the girlfriend, the kids will probably be able to deal with it much better as they won't see the girlfriend as a bad person or a "problem".  Having divorced parents is normal now.  Not that it's good or that it's necessarily right, but it IS normal - and kids can deal with it and adjust quite well with few (if any) ill effects.

Mom needs to learn what is appropriate to say to her kids and what isn't.  What is best for the kids is for the grown-ups to be grown-up instead of behaving like nasty, hurtful teenagers trying to get back at their ex and not caring who else they hurt as long as the ex is hurt as badly as possible.  That is severe emotional abuse to her kids - period.


[em]Lucky

Lead your life so you wouldn't be ashamed to sell the family parrot to the town gossip.
- Will Rogers[em]