So Tired!

[olanna]

That should keep you busy for a bit and help you to understand that the system isn't working and it isn't just a reflection of the "whiners" on this board..

http://www.caltax.org/MEMBER/digest/May99/may99-5.htm
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,219497,00.html
http://www.fathermag.com/907/child-support/
http://www.massnews.com/2003_Editions/2_Feb/022003_mn_child_support_system.shtml
http://boards.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/[email protected]%[email protected]/2035
http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2003/0923.html
http://mensnewsdaily.com/archive/r/robbins/2005/robbins051305.htm
http://www.glennsacks.com/federal_child_support.htm
http://www.fathers4kids.com/html/ChildSupport.htm?article_id=71
http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56382
http://www.fathersunite.org/
http://mensnewsdaily.com/archive/w/ward/03/ward072703.htm
http://www.la-legal.com/modules/article/view.article.php?c4/16
http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/site/news.php?id=53

[mistoffolees]

>That should keep you busy for a bit and help you to
>understand that the system isn't working and it isn't just a
>reflection of the "whiners" on this board..

OK. Let's have a look. But before even looking, I'm willing to bet you've found a stack of anecdotes and completely irrelevant articles.

For the record, the claim you are trying to support is that the system fails more often than not. In order to establish that, your 'evidence' must provide factual information to support that claim.

>
>http://www.caltax.org/MEMBER/digest/May99/may99-5.htm

States that there is lots of child support owed - which I never denied. In fact, this uses roughly the same figures as the study I already provided which shows that > 90% of support is being paid.

Nope, doesn't provide evidence that the system fails more often than not.

>http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,219497,00.html

Case of one individual. Considering that tens of millions of people are divorced, one individual is hardly proof that the entire system is broken.

>http://www.fathermag.com/907/child-support/

A discussion of whether the current system is ethical. Doesn't have any evidence of how often it fails.

>http://www.massnews.com/2003_Editions/2_Feb/022003_mn_child_support_system.shtml

A letter written from one person to another - with absolutely no statistical evidence.

>http://boards.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/[email protected]%[email protected]/2035

A board much like this one for people to complain about an issue - but no evidence of the frequency of the problem.

>http://www.ifeminists.net/introduction/editorials/2003/0923.html

The only 'fact' is the claim that 250,000 fathers are incarcerated for failure to pay child support. Aside from the fact that they never documented this claim (and it would constitute 12% of the entire prison population - which is pretty hard to believe), let's say for a second it's true. That doesn't dispute the figures I provided - that well over 90% of all child support is being paid on time and of the remaining percentage, most of it is caused by people who don't have a job.

Can you do the math? There are something like 25 million divorced fathers in this country. Even if we accept your made up figure, that's only 1% of the total.

>http://mensnewsdaily.com/archive/r/robbins/2005/robbins051305.htm

A long whine about injustice - with no facts.

>http://www.glennsacks.com/federal_child_support.htm

This is a good one. It affirms that most of the people who don't pay child support simply can't afford to do so. Other than that, there's someone's speculation that if someone does something the world's going to go to pieces, but that's the usual alarmist stuff that politicians throw around. Feel free to provide facts rather than fearmongering.

>http://www.fathers4kids.com/html/ChildSupport.htm?article_id=71

Same estimate of 250,000 fathers incarcerated for failure to pay support. Same lack of reference for that figure. Same response as above.

>http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=56382

As above, they have a couple of anecdotes - but no evidence on the frequency of problems.

>http://www.fathersunite.org/

An organization set up to provide a "single voice to change the broken, biased and often corrupt family legal system". Clearly, not an unbiased source. Even so, there's nothing there that provides evidence that the system fails more often than not.

>http://mensnewsdaily.com/archive/w/ward/03/ward072703.htm

Anecdotes.

>http://www.la-legal.com/modules/article/view.article.php?c4/16

No evidence- just a typical sensationalistic article without facts.

>http://www.fathersandfamilies.org/site/news.php?id=53

More anecdotes.


Just as I predicted, you've provided a bunch of sensationalistic articles with no facts.

I readily agreed that the system is imperfect - and all these articles managed to do is to affirm that the system is imperfect - so they don't disprove a thing I've said.

The issue that's being discussed is your insistence that the system is broken so badly that it fails more often than not. None of these articles even remotely address that issue. In fact, several of time affirm that the problems occur in a relatively small number of cases.

So where is the evidence to support your claim that the system fails more often than not?

[SPARC Admin]

>so they don't disprove a thing I've said.

What they prove is that nothing will convince you.

We both know that it wouldn't matter how many studies you were shown or what they said- your mind is made up and that's that. And now you have so much emotionally invested in defending your position that you're utterly incapable of considering anything that contradicts it.

You hide behind a closed mind and pretend it's critical thinking. It's not.

[speciallady]

Come on now Mist, you can't negate personal experience nor articles that reflect that. That is why boards like this exist. You can quote stats all you want but I really feel your stance on all this is quite harmful to folks looking for help. Most come to boards like this in desperation--your claims make it seem like there is no justification in that. You're hiding behind "I readily agreed that the system is imperfect..." and cannot see beyond that. It's insulting to see you write that folks are making things up, that their own experiences show nothing, that your "study" concludes that the system works more than not.........I strongly disagree and while I did find studies to prove you wrong, I agree with Waylon, you need to do your own legwork.
Your stance is just disturbing because folks come here looking for help. While you do answer posts and try to be helpful (although "ask your attorney" is a no-brainer...) you have to realize that many many folks are at the end of their ropes. If they read your posts, like these latest ones, they'd be inclined to think there was no hope. By your posts it would seem that you advocate for believing in this system and do nothing. Just go along with it because it works in most cases?
Again, I strongly disagree.
I feel you are doing more harm than good lately and if I was a newbie here, I'd definetely wonder why you are here? You obviously are happy with your custody and support orders. You obviously think the system is working. All things the folks on this board are not happy with.
Boy I wish someone would get POC back on here--I'm sure he'd have some stats for ya--
Please Mist, understand what this board is for--why folks are here. You are not helping anyone here when you argue with admin or posters. You have stated your opinion and there's no changing that. I am happy you have an ideal custody and support order. Most folks here do not or have fought tooth and nail to get what they have. You should show respect to the many that have been through the court trenches and have been members of this board for many many years.

I agree with Waylon--you should start your own board.

[olanna]

Word.

[sparrowmom]

>>The SYSTEM is Not Broken....  
>>However, it is unfortunate that some "Parents" are.....
>
>I'm a custodial parent, and from my experience I would say the
>system is badly broken in quite a few different ways. The last
>10 years have made this clear to me beyond any doubt.

Because I can't find anywhere else to start, I have to go with this.

But first, could someone Please tell me how I got caught up in this

mistoffolees Debate???  
 
If I didn't know better, I would swear I was reading something from 2 parents ((that happen to be Lawyers)) argue!!  

Just to clarify.... I feel the "parents and not the system" are broken because.....   If parents were able to communicate just enough for the child.... there would be no need for the court to be involved!!!

I DO agree that the system is "Broken" to a point. I will certainly agree that the Judges might be swayed by personal opinion most of the time. I can also agree that a Judge is bound to look at the case law everytime and base the ruling on that.  But show your face in the courtroom complaining with "fluff and stuff"..  enough...  The Judge will soon be able to sift the "Stuff from the Fluff"  If you have been there done that and still think the system has failed you.... You might be the one filled with "Fluff"

 Beyond that, if you don't care for the "Code and Legal points"
CHANGE IT!  
You have every right to contact those that write and revise the Code.

No offence intented... But if you can't find a way to make it work yourself.. it is no fault of the court.  It may not even be your fault.. (As in my case)   It IS a Parental problem.

So what do you want me to say????  In a Perfect world... the court should get rid of the opposing parent??

BTW, as a NCP, my Daughter was raised by her Father. (that was the best for my child at the time)

As a CP, I have begged the NCP father of a son to work with me without involving the court...   This Was Refused Many Times!

Also, As brought up earlier....
I am quite aware of the NCP's reasons for not being able to attend games.!!  
  Last year, it was because of the Child Support they were required to send me every month.  (Even had a "family meeting to discuss this" and told the child + his 6 bonus siblings... they would not get any Christmas presents if NCP went to that 1 Game... You see, he was supposed to pick child up after the game as well. NCP chose to forgo the entire weekend and wait..  I have email that can back this up.

Also... Reason I see sports as an issue...  
NCP refused to take child to All School related activities in the past when child was with NCP on parental time.  NCP made promises and then called me a few hours before  the activity to tell me not to be there... Child was not going...  
 One of my Favorites was a Wrestling Tourney a few years ago! Believe it or not, The Coach was my Daughters Father... (The one that I was NCP of)  The NCP called my Ex first and we all laughed...  I adore and am am happy that my daughters father and I work so well together..

So... anyone care to tell me how to make the NCP ((FATHER)) listen and work with me??

That is what I need help with!
Why turn this into some personal debate that I stumbled upon?

BYW! I am NOT Everyone/Your bitter EX.. or your Ex's mother.
I happen to be one of a kind...
I really would like opinions on MY situation alone..
(From both NCP and CP point of view)

Thanks!

[brwneyedmom]

only 39 minutes to read, digest and reply to the list.  You must be a speed reader to have absorbed all those articles in that amount of time.  I agree with speciallady that newbies may be turned away. If I had only known now what I've learned, sometimes painfully, over the years from board posters, I like to think that I could have prevented at least some of the acrimony of my divorce.  For some people the system is broke and studies won't help them cope with their circumstances.  

I used to appreciate your advice.  Now I'm beginning to read your posts as you just want to argue.

[MixedBag]

you can't make the other parent listen, or do anything....and that's where you start and continue.

I have a situation right now I'd like to bring up to the NCP, but I won't because the NCP isn't ready to listen and I know that.

So....I just keep loving our child, keep doing the best that I can, and our child is not only surviving, but thriving.

I remember when a particular sport was soooooo important according to the other parent that my child's relationship had to stop so our son could participate in this so important sport.  Well, I decided to take him to an event -- and the other parent didn't even come to watch him.  Sad...

But in the end it backfired....

Love the child, support the child -- and continue to support a relationship between the three of you -- dad, child and mom

[mistoffolees]

>only 39 minutes to read, digest and reply to the list.  You
>must be a speed reader to have absorbed all those articles in
>that amount of time.  I agree with speciallady that newbies

So I must be wrong because I can read faster than you? Strange logic.

If you can find a flaw in my analysis, feel free. Personal attacks aren't justified.

>may be turned away. If I had only known now what I've learned,
>sometimes painfully, over the years from board posters, I like
>to think that I could have prevented at least some of the
>acrimony of my divorce.  For some people the system is broke
>and studies won't help them cope with their circumstances.  

Yes, for SOME PEOPLE, there are problems with the system. I never denied that. That doesn't mean that we should pretend the entire system is broken.

>
>I used to appreciate your advice.  Now I'm beginning to read
>your posts as you just want to argue.

I like people to get facts right. When people are being given inappropriate information that might lead to erroneous action, I will point out what I see as the error in that position. WHy are you opposed to my pointing out errors?

[SPARC Admin]

>I like people to get facts right.

As long as they support what you personally believe in. Otherwise it's dismissed out of hand.


>WHy are you opposed to my pointing out errors?

Why are you opposed to the idea that you might be mistaken about something? You look at a study or two and suddenly it's like the clouds parted and you heard the Word Of God.  

Did you examine the methodology of the reporting criteria, the sample size, the error rate, external factors, or any of the other things that factored into the report? No, you didn't. You saw something that fit your personal beliefs and agenda and *boom*, now it's the One True Way and nothing else can possibly be right. Do you realize how ridiculous that makes you look?

Really....if the system works as well as you seem to think it does, why are you even here? Aren't there weightier problems that demand your vast, clearly infallible expertise? If things are working as well as you claim, what exactly are you doing here?