So Tired!

[SPARC Admin]

>And if you think you can analyze someone on the basis of what
>they post on a bulletin board, then it's no wonder you think
>the world is nuts.

I never said the "world is nuts". I think that comment tells us a lot more about you than you realized. Apparently you're here because your life is going so well and everything is fine, right? That's why you came to this board, mistoffolees- because your life is in perfect order and you have no problems. Riiiiiiiiight.


>That's an extremely juvenile and unprofessional thing to do -
> just what I'd expect from someone who makes up data.

I'd say the same thing about you- it's just what I'd expect from someone whose mind is closed and who's convinced that only they Know The Truth.

[mistoffolees]

>>That's an extremely juvenile and unprofessional thing to do -
>
>> just what I'd expect from someone who makes up data.
>
>I'd say the same thing about you- it's just what I'd expect
>from someone whose mind is closed and who's convinced that
>only they Know The Truth.

You know you've lost the argument when you have to make things up and pretend the other person said them.

I never claimed that only I know the truth - far from it. In fact, I'm actively seeking information to help get closer to the truth.

I'm done with this. You've made it clear that you think it's OK to make up 'evidence' to back your claim, that you refuse to provide any real evidence to back your claim, and you're convinced that your claim is correct simply because you said so. I'm willing to look at alternative evidence and asked you for some - and the best you could do is fabricate it (because in your mind you don't need evidence to back your position). And, in spite of all of that, you attack me and claim that I'm the one with a closed mind.

Rather amazing. But I'm done arguing with you. It's impossible to have a rational debate with someone who insists that that kind of irrational position makes sense.

[olanna]

http://www.acsblog.org/equality-and-liberty-suit-challenges-constitutionality-of-childs-best-interest.html

http://books.google.com/books?id=dRY1-7WFlTwC&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=l+mendel+rivers+jr+as+a+family+court+judge&source=web&ots=TuySyPa_m1&sig=sP1RTi9tuYoAY0OMoce2okW91OA

I've posted this before.  

[SPARC Admin]

>I never claimed that only I know the truth - far from it. In
>fact, I'm actively seeking information to help get closer to
>the truth.

Except for the part about going out and actually doing research, seeking alternate opinions, or listening to people who say something you disagree with. Aside from that, yeah, you're just an information-seeking machine.



>I'm done with this.

Fine with me. I'm not intimidated by your vociferous bullshit, unlike a lot of people you buffalo, browbeat, and shout down.


>you're convinced that your claim is correct simply because
>you said so.

Actually that sounds more like you. Remember, you're the one that won't answer my questions. Why is that?



>Rather amazing. But I'm done arguing with you.

Lol, that wasn't even close to an argument. That was you trying to drill through a battleship with a Q-Tip. Your 'argument' consisted of "I saw a study and I believe it, so I'm right and everyone else is wrong."



>It's impossible
>to have a rational debate with someone who insists that that
>kind of irrational position makes sense.

That's exactly the way a lot of people here feel about you. Ask me how I know.

[olanna]

I've never understood why Mist came to this board if everything was working for him.  It is hard to admit defeat, and everyone wants to be the winner..but truth be known, when it comes to the court and government involvement in families, no one wins...especially not the children.

Anyone saying the system is working quite well either isn't involved with it or is in denial.  It's the comparative of blowing up the coral reef to move the yacht closer to the mansion to save time....

[SPARC Admin]

>Anyone saying the system is working quite well either isn't
>involved with it or is in denial.

I agree.

Mist appears to be defining the system "working well" in terms of efficiency or percentage of support paid. That's not necessarily the benchmark I'd choose. If all one cares about is 'efficiency', then they'd be right at home in the [a href=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_Germany]Third Reich[/a], which was notoriously efficient. Not fair, friendly, or rational, but very, very efficient. I understand that for the Nazis it worked well.

[escape2paradise]

Mist, I see your point.  This is just more dribble from whiners who want to blame things on everyone else but themselves.  Guess what folks, not one single person visiting this board would be in the position they are if they had not been flawed in whom they chose for a partner in parenting their child/children.  I count myself among those people.  I picked a frog as the father for my child.  Guess what?  The kiss did not change him into a prince!  

The system is not perfect and Mist does not deny that.  There is no one system that will be perfect for everybody.  That is impossible!

I have yet to hear any suggestions from any of the naysayers posting as to what would make the system better.  Anything you come up with may be a positive for some, but inherently will be a negative for others.  

For instance I am apauled at my situation in that I don't think my X should have ever been allowed to start the custody action against me in the first place.  

My X is a druggie, doesn't work and has never been a consistent parent either in time, effort or money.  His own family can't believe the gaul he has in instituting the current custody dispute.  

I on the other hand have provided a safe loving home for the child for all her 13 yrs.  I have encouraged the X's involvement and his family's.  I have provided completely for the financials and necessaties for said child.  The child is a well adjusted straight A student who participates in numerous sports and extracurriculars.  

From my point of view this is a flaw in the system.  His right to start this fiasco has cost me $20K and we haven't even gone to trial yet.  It has cost the X his visitation (druggies shouldn't start court proceedings when they can't pass a hair follicle).  Can it be fixed?  I doubt it.  Everybody has to have their day in court and the ability to prove their points, otherwise the court wouldn't have the information they need to determine what is in the child's best interest.  

Mist is no way said the system is perfect.  However, for every thousand people who have been let down there are 100 thousand that it has worked for just as it was intended.  The flaw that starts it all is the parents and the choices they make.  For there mistakes their children will suffer and the "system" can't be responsible for fixing that!

[Kitty C.]

......that I've already offered in this thread.

This is what I proposed to a presidential candidate:  take the adversarial atmosphere out of the family court system (because it never belonged there in the first place) and not only would it solve many of the problematic issues, but I think it would also cause a drop in the divorce rate.  Now, before anyone gets their knickers in a twist, let me explain and CONSIDER this in your opinion.

If you remove the adversarial atmosphere, there will be no 'winners' or 'losers', because forcing this situation only makes the kids the losers.  IF, and I do mean IF, a parent might be a possible threat to the children in any way, that must be decided by the court.

Remove the mediator process (where both parents bring their own plans to the table, but it's left to the mediator to decide) and bring in 'coaches', who will work with both parents to come up with one plan TOGETHER.  Apparently, this is something that has already been implemented in some states, tho I can't put my finger on the specifics at the moment.  What they have found where the 'coaching' process is used, is that the divorce rate is starting to go down.  When the parents realize they have to work together, regardless of whether they stay together or not, it is apparently changing their prospective on the whole process.

And I'm going to counter this as well, as many of you are probably shaking your heads and saying it's not possible if the parents refuse to work together.  In this type of system, they are FORCED to!  They are both going to be parents until the child(ren) turn age of majority (and that should be the same for EVERY state).  If the parents know GOING IN to this situation that, NO MATTER WHAT, they will have to work with the other parent in order to maintain a relationship with their child, then they will think differently about getting into it in the first place.  And through that, it might make men and women think differently about bringing kids into the world and whom they do that with, as well.  

The whole problem with any major change in thinking is getting everyone on board.  Which is why states that have passed joint physical custody laws are still having problems.  Why?  Because old school judges refuse to consider it.  We've seen this quite often here in Iowa since ours was passed.

Do not ask me about specifics and details.........if you want to disseminate and shoot holes in it, be my guest.  But you wanted ideas, so have at it............

[SPARC Admin]

>Guess what folks, not one single person visiting
>this board would be in the position they are if they had not
>been flawed in whom they chose for a partner in parenting
>their child/children.  

So, it's their fault for not knowing that their partner would develop a drug habit, become an alcoholic, or turn out to be a screwup? It's their fault for not being able to predict that? How are you supposed to know in advance? Please tell me, because I'll write a book and make a million dollars.



>The system is not perfect and Mist does not deny that.  There
>is no one system that will be perfect for everybody.  

No one said there was or would be any system that will be perfect for everybody.  Where in the world did you hear anyone say that?




>I have yet to hear any suggestions from any of the naysayers
>posting as to what would make the system better.  

Maybe not in this thread, but various suggestions have been being put forth for YEARS. Please, give me a break. Just because you don't hear it here doesn't mean it hasn't happened.


>Anything you
>come up with may be a positive for some, but inherently will
>be a negative for others.  

Thank you, Captain Obvious.




>For instance I am apauled at my situation in that I don't
>think my X should have ever been allowed to start the custody
>action against me in the first place.

What, he should be forced to stay married to you and you to him? What gain is there in that? Should only one parent have the power to initiate divorce proceedings? Which one, and why? How will this sort of thing be fairly determined?




>I on the other hand have provided a safe loving home for the
>child for all her 13 yrs.  I have encouraged the X's
>involvement and his family's.  I have provided completely for
>the financials and necessaties for said child.  The child is a
>well adjusted straight A student who participates in numerous
>sports and extracurriculars.  

Well, since the Family Court system is so fair and just, they should see this and you should surely prevail, right? *cough* It's at least as fair as the child support system. Oh, wait....



>However, for every
>thousand people who have been let down there are 100 thousand
>that it has worked for just as it was intended.

As mistoffolees is so fond of saying, "Show me the evidence". You're just pulling those figures out of your butt. Show me the proof or stats to back your claim up. Otherwise expect mistoffolees to berate you for making unsubstantiated claims.



>The flaw that
>starts it all is the parents and the choices they make.

That's certainly true in some cases, but not in all. To make a blanket statement like that is both ignorant and ridiculous.

[olanna]

Please be sure to look at the reference page for this book...look at all those that were cited and quoted.  I have been on both sides of the coin...both NCP and CP. I can say that I found the system much more responsive to CP's and generally found the resulting order much more in my favor. So long as I am a winner, who cares about the other team, right? So that must mean that for every winner in family court, there is a loser and someone that is unhappy with the outcome.  So your own numbers are quite skewed.  Looks like 100,000 happy customers also means 100,000 unhappy customers. Does fifty percent grade still equal an F these days, or does that mean that its the best that can be done, so there is a Jesus factor giving it an A????


http://books.google.com/books?id=dRY1-7WFlTwC&pg=PA136&lpg=PA136&dq=l+mendel+rivers+jr+as+a+family+court+judge&source=web&ots=TuySyPa_m1&sig=sP1RTi9tuYoAY0OMoce2okW91OA