How should I prepare, for mediation etc...

[Kitty C.]

It's not words, it's intent.  It says a LOT about how you view the situation and all these issues we deal with are based on how we perceive the situation, especially from the CP's point of view.  I have yet to see a parent who used 'my' instead of 'our' CONSISTENTLY, regardless of whom they were speaking to, who didn't have visitation or custody issues.  When you get over the 'impression' that the child is a possession, with the use of a possessive word (my, mine), then you will find MANY of your custody and parenting time problems disappear.  It's all in the attitude........

And the last thing you want to do on this site is threaten.  I already said it was my opinion and opinions ARE allowed in this free society.  If you don't like it, don't respond to  it.  But as others here have said, I calls 'em as I sees 'em.

[Bolivar OH]

Kitty C. that's interesting observation.  I have been reading your posts for a bit and enjoy your comments.  Unlike you, my ability to write and get my point across is very poor to say the least.

Back to your observation.  I went back to looked at my posts.  I noticed that when describing my situation I use the word MY once and OUR 3 times per paragraph. (that's just average)

It never occurred to me the subtle nuance of MY and OUR even existed.  That's a keen awareness you have.  Your right that does give the "'impression' that the child is a possession".  I will keep guard on my English.

[Tchmymnd]

When I first started resourching Family Law, I ran into a guy, online, who has a site for NC Fathers.  When seeking help from him, in order to get custody of my step children. (as they were in an abusive, violent, drug filled environment) The guy said that they use the constitution to get Custody. That in the constitution, it states that the children and all the rest of their household is their posession.   Because I totally disagree with "Children" being a posession, we no longer spoke with him.

Sauing 'my daughter', is not stating she is a possesion,  it is labeling her, giving her a name.  And here where I am not personal, I refer to her as my daughter.  

I am aware that there are mothers out there telling fathers that their kids are not the father.  I said already, that when I am talking to my ex, I don't refer to my daughter as MY daughter, I call her by name.  

My useing the label "My Daughter" has nothing to do with my perspective, my intent, or my situation with my visiting/custody issues.  Period...

You definately you are intitled to your opinion, the thing about opinions though, is they are based "in most cases" on assumed knowledge of situations.

And Please oh please, explain to me what part of my message was threatening... I am not a threatening person, but am curious as to what it is you found threatening.


Otherwise, if anyone as an opinion, or some kind of 'educated' feedback as to whether or not I should just go ahead now and file a parenting plan, I would appreciate it.  If I try to file, and he has already what would happen? I don't know how that would work.  Im not wanting to file to spite him FILING, I simply want to make sure it gets done.

Thanks for those offering feedback that is useful.

[Kitty C.]

Actually, you gave me a good chuckle!  Because I have the opposite problem, I can get my point down in the written word, but I can't make it come out of my mouth the same way, LOL!  I think it's because of taking my time to write, allowing me to think things thru before I put it down.  Just out of curiosity, have you been diagnosed with Adult ADD or researched it at all?  I was diagnosed about 5 years ago, finally understanding why I had these perceived 'roadblocks' I couldn't get thru.

The nuance is certainly there, and most of the time those who do it don't even think of how it sounds or looks or realize what they are doing.  It took me a long time to make that realization.  Especially if your child hears you use it.  It's another extremely subtle form of PAS, because if the child hears it, they get the impression that they only belong to the parent saying 'my' and wonder why the other part of them isn't acknowledged.  Like the other part of them (the other parent) isn't worthy of mention.  And to them, it makes NO difference who you're talking to.  It's all the same to them.  I know that DS would just beam when I would say 'our', regardless of whether his dad was present or not and who I was talking to.  And even tho his dad is gone, DS is STILL our son and always will be, no matter what the situation.  Heck, even my 79 y.o. mom still uses 'our' when she talks of us kids, even tho my dad has been gone for 13 years.

It's subtleties like this that PAS gets it's start from.  If you recognize those subtle signs (and many don't), it's much easier to cut off the offending parent at the pass before it gets too far out of hand.  Just another aspect of custody every NCP needs to know!

[Tchmymnd]

"Your right that does give the "'impression' that the child is a possession"."

Doesnt saying OUR give the impression as well that the child is a possession?  

I have thought and thought about this, I have gone over the My child vs Our Child in my head.  And I just don't get it.  

Maybe, the fact that I was a single mom for ten yrs, and even when my kids fathers decided Not to be involved, It was just me.  

It's interesting though, because having finally gotten married to my now husband.  It has been an issue in how I refer to my step kids.  Calling them and mine OURS,  that seems to be a bigger issue than anything.  

Im not sure that having different ways of referring to our children, means theirs PAS involved,  if I spoke to the father saying shes mine. Or to my child saying "your mine". then yes, but in conversation with people other than him or her.  NO not at all.

I think though PAS is very real, some folks have gotten carried away with "diagnosing" it.

[Kitty C.]

Diagnosing it is the toughest part.  Just like I told Bolivar, it's extremely subtle in the earliest stages, but if you look at the progression in a full-blown case, the roots of it are in the subtlety.

Yes, 'our' denotes possession.  And I apologize for not making myself clearer.  I was trying to differentiate between a singular possession and one that is 'shared'.  In PAS, the subtleties occur by systematically shutting out the other parent.  In this aspect, going from a shared 'possession' to a singular 'possession' is often the first move.  I think that 'possession' is a bad word to use, but given the circumstances, I can't think of a better explanation.

And you hit the nail right on the head in regards to blended families.  As much as SS's mother hates my guts, it makes it difficult to say 'our children' and not have it get back to her and get into a tizzy fit about SS not being 'my' child, but her's.  Funny how she can't see the same in regards to her husband and SS, since DH realizes that they are still a family, tho the dynamics may not be traditional.  If SF were to say 'our family', going into a protracted explanation isn't worth the time.  SS is just as much a part of his SF's family as he is in mine/ours.  PBFH just has major self-esteem issues and has always had a hard time with me being involved in SS's life in any shape or form.  She'd just prefer I didn't exist!

We see it as semantics, but there's intent, however subtle, in everything we say and do.  PAS is often referred to as 'brainwashing' and that is how traditional brainwashing is accomplished, by starting with the subtleties that no one would recognize as harmful, but when you persist with it, and over time add to it, it takes on a whole new meaning.  Like not being aware your kids have grown so much, until someone who hasn't seen them for a long time exclaims on how much they've changed.  If you see it and hear it every day, you don't think anything of it.  But when you look back at it over a period of time, you can see it as it truely is.

Does that make sense??

[Tchmymnd]

Yes I think it does make sense.  

I also think though, that it's NOT an issue of PAS even in a subtle form, if years have gone by, and there are not other symptoms.   As is the case here.  I REALLY have tried to get DD's BF involved with her.  I got some feedback once on how I can go a step further to help DD's BF feel more a part of her life, and thus I tried those things as well.  (Such as keeping school papers for him to see)  I always called to let him know when anything was happening. If its just a regular check up I don't. But infected toenails, I did.  Christmas program at church I did.  Even had him spend the night so he could get up in the morning to go to the trial with us, when she was five.  (He didn't and still doesnt drive).   I have tried to work with him, with communication.  I don't know.   Finally someone made the comment that maybe, he doesnt do more to be involved because thats what I want of him, even though it's for DD, it's still what I want.  So I don't know anymore at all.  

I did tell him, Im willing to talk, message on yahoo, whatever so that we could agree on a parenting plan, so he wouldnt have to worry about a mediator.  I mean, he was able to talk to me a few months back about feeling suicidal and such.  I told him Im very flexible and I am. Im not interested in fighting him on the schedules and such.   I don't want to fight at all. I just want DD to have her daddy...  thats what she wants, she feels he doesnt love her, I have told her he does.  He just doesnt know how to show it well.

Anyhow, Kitty I have read other messages from you, you seem to be a big help to others.  Do you have anything at all to share or suggest regarding, filing a parenting plan in case he doesnt? or how I should prepare for possible mediation.  I had emailed someone who works for mediation association, she said that it was great I was doing my homework, Mediators appreciate it when folks go in prepared.

PS... I have decided to TRY and stay away from the MY daughter. (Case you didn't notice that in the message, course it wasnt our either,) but Im willing to try to change it, in case it really does have an effect on attitude. I sure don't want to be with the kind of attitude that may make DD feel as though she's mine and not her dads.

[Kitty C.]

There's some sample parenting plans on this site.  The trick is to tailor it to whatever suits your family situation, sometimes a tough proposition.  Every situation is unique and it takes a lot of time and diligence to come up with something that will work for everyone.

Another thing you need to consider is making allowances for changing needs.  One thing we failed to do in ours was plan for when DS was in HS and had other activities he would want to be involved in.  His dad lived 1800 miles away, so DS would spend ALL summer with him.  I realized that eventually DS would want to get a job, have friends he would want to hang with more often (tho he loves his dad dearly adn would never miss a chance to see him), or other things going on.  But his dad died 2 years ago of cancer, so that's a moot point now.  He's in summer school right now and it runs to the end of July.  If his dad were still alive, it would have made for a VERY difficult time for the both of them, and if need be, I would have deferred DS's start of the school year, just to get some extra time with his dad.

It's hard to think of everything, so don't feel bad if you think you haven't covered all the bases.  There is one other thing I would suggest, tho.  Because of the distance involved in our case, and that the CO was ordered in Dad's state, the judge ruled that if we came to an agreement that was NOT a part of the original order, that a written statement signed by both of us was equal to modifying the order and would hold up in court.  Very wise, since it allowed us to make changes, even permanent, without having to go thru the courts to get it.

[Bolivar OH]

Kitty C., I am dyslexic.  When my thoughts go from thinking to writing "brain tangle" occurs.  I try to keep my post short and to the point.  Otherwise I will loose the reader in a swamp of goop.  However, I find myself getting so caught up the board I want to post something.  You know, to be apart of it.  I've never been much of a side line player.  I like to be apart of the action.  So I will stumble along.  It's more fun for me to stumble and share my ideas than sit on the side lines and just watch.

[Kitty C.]

Share away!  And the more you participate, the more confident you will be about doing it, and the better you will get at it.  One thing I know that helps me tremendously is proofreading and editing.  I have made a serious habit of it.  I will transpose words and letters frequently.  And any average post from me usually takes 10-20 minutes just because of that!

Everyone here is very understanding, which is why I like it so well here.  I've seen you on another 'forum', where the posters aren't nearly as cordial or sympathetic.  But then again, they are just as bitter as the exes they got rid of, so I just consider the source and laugh it off.

If someone asks you about a post of yours and you realize that's not what you meant, just say so.  Everyone has strengths and weaknesses and everyone is human, certainly not perfect.  Frankly, I think you do a great job of describing how you feel and explaining yourself.  And I'm glad you're here!