I AM the evil female...super long post

[Kitty C.]

Logic, statistics, and probability have NOTHING to do with this!!!!!!!!!  We're talking about HUMANS here, where NOTHING is logical when it comes to love and family.  You must throw everything you have ever learned, studied, or calculated OUT the window and consider ONLY your child's whole life, NOT just the next few months.....her ENTIRE life.  Because the decisions you make now WILL affect her for the rest of her entire life is some way, shape, or form.

Emotions never follow any set pattern or course and it's different for each individual person.  NOTHING about these issues is in black and white.  Throw logic right out the window.  And put your child's wants and needs FIRST, before you EVER think about yourself.  And while you're at it, see what you can do about your boys' father as well.  They need him just as bad as your daughter and if adopted kids can find their birth parents, then he can be found as well.  If for nothing else, so that your boys can look him up themselves when they get old enough and want to.

[msme]

You are right, some statistics can be twisted but did you notice that most of what was on that sight was studies made for the express purpose of discrediting the facts that were gleaned from places like the US Census Bureau & the prisons, themselves. Not studies done for the purpose of proving a point.

Now, here is a dose of reality for you. I live this every day. I have a 12 year old grandaughter who is so emotionally abused by her mother that she was just been discharged from a mental hospital for her 3rd breakdown.

Each one has been attributed to the lies her mother fills her head with. Her mother's goal is to make her hate her Dad. I didn't say father because my son is not her father.

He met her mother when she was pregnant with her. He was in the delivery room & gave the child his name. They married & had 2 more. After the 3rd, she began to run around. He tried counseling. She refused. He finally left because he couldn't take it any more.

He let her have the kids & tried to be the best part time dad he could be. She became enraged & started beating the kids. She knew that hurting them would hurt him .

To make a long story a little shorter, he eventually realized that the best place for them was not with her & started the fight to rescue them. It took a while but eventually, after she sent the girl to school with her whole face black & blue & a bloody nose from the latest beating, he was awarded custody.

Her visitation was reduced to 3 hours a week. She then began the emotional abuse, full force. She mainly focused on the girl, telling her fantasys about her "real father". In fact, we do not believe she even knows who he is.

She tells her how he is coming to rescue her from her Dad & the 3 of them will go away & live happily ever after. Eventually, she tells her that she hasn't found him & that everything wrong in her life is because her dad took her away. She tells the child that if she were living with "mommy" then "mommy" wouldn't have all the problems she has.

The child has become brain washed to believe that she has to escape & take care of "mommy". At 12, she often has to face the reality of the situation & when she does, she suffers a mental breakdown. Right now, she is facing repeating 6th grade because "mommy" told her that if she was really bad at home & at school then Dad would get disgusted & send her back to live with her mother.

This has been going on for 3 years & there is no end in site. No matter how good he is to the child, it doesn't matter because "mommy" is working full time convincing her that she does not need her Dad.

What I have related here is only a drop in the trough of crap that we have lived through at the hands of a woman who believes the children belong to her & her alone. I am not even going to go into what she has done to the boys because it is minor compared to what she has done to her.

Do your daughter a favor & get your head out of your butt. Be the very best parent you can be & let her dad do the same. If he doesn't, she will get over it but she will never get over not having him at all.

You never get a second chance to make a first impression!

[Kitty C.]

No one could have said it better............

[mango]

Two sagas here:


My Dh 's ex is "dark" and we feel unfit for a mother. However it IS my SD mother and half of herself. Children need to know both parents whether good or bad. They can learn from bad parents too, How NOT to be.

As much as we dislike the BM and feel she cares very little of her own daughters true best interests. But we understand that the chidl loves her very much, and that is what matters most.

We base all our decisons on how the child feels, not what the mother wants. etc etc. It's hard to do, trust me.

Saga 2:
My mother and father divorced and my mother spoke bad of my dad daily. I am 39 today, and rensent my mother for her constant badmouthing. I see now it only made me feel inferior. It didn't win her a prise for being a better parent, just a bitter one.

I now have NO relationship with my dad, and have ried. Perhpas what she said was true I don't know, but for some reason we as a species need to know our parents, good or bad as they may be.

Yes my mom may have been correct in her complaints, but I'd rather of discovered it for myself.

What ought to do is keep things out of court, and don't make him pay child support (if you can afford to) Maybe ask him to help out in other ways if he is willing, like chip in on daycare or stuff. Have a workable visting plan and allow a relationship of visits together. (Keep track of it somewhere) As long as you can keep things civil you might be OK.

If you piss him off you are likely faced with a road of debt and bitterness, and hardball. Sounds like he can play some hard-ball if it came to that.

I have a few friends who are unwed mothers that preferred to stay out of court and it's been much better for them. The father's have a relationship and don't feel attacked by court stuff. Had they gone to court it would have gotten UGLY.

Trust me, what you loose to lawyers, court, mediation, GAL's, and phych evals = childsupport you could get, or hatred out of it, is not worth it. You could go 20,000 or more into debt, and still be fighting evey year.

Good luck.

[lacunar]

It is too late to choose who you will parent with.  You will always have the responsibility of maximizing the parenting potential of both parents, and true love for your child will enableyou to do so.  So buck up and make the best of what you have with your fellow parent.

Anything less is not what anyone could call unconditional love, which you claim to have for your child.  

[RainGirl]

Do you feel your granddaughter's life is better off for having her mother involved?

[Ref]

I am guessing that your implication is that the granddaughter would be better off without her mother as your child would be better off without her daddy.

You have to admit that that is quite a jump. A woman willing to beat the pulp out of her own child vs. a dad that, at your own admission, has never shown abuse toward your/his child.

[sweetnsad]

After reading thru the responses, I have a headache...:)  Everyone has an opinion on this, and now, so do I...

I think your daughter has the absolute right to have her father in her life, if he so chooses to be.  You, deciding that for her, will inevitably damage your relationship with her when she is old enough to understand what you did.  She is not going to care that you did it for her own good or for whatever your reasons are...she's only going to care that you decided to keep her father from her and she's not going to be very happy about it.  

If the man didn't want to be part of her life, fine, but this is obviously not the case.  You may think you are doing what's best for her, but trust me, you are not.  Let your daughter decide, when she's old enough, if she wants to continue having him be in her life....until then, don't play God and mess up her chances of knowing her real father.  It will come back and bite you in the a$$ later...

I'm sorry you had problems with him, but it takes two to tango and now she is both your responsibility.  Just because you are her mother, doesn't mean that gives you the right to decide something as important as whether or not he should see her.  

Your situation angers many people here because this is a forum for parents that want to do what's best for their kids...and there are alot of fathers here that are dealing with women very similar to you, so don't go expecting for them to understand where you are coming from.   These guys are spending phenomenal amounts of money to fight the very situation that you are inflicting upon your daughter.

[RainGirl]

>I am guessing that your implication is that the granddaughter
>would be better off without her mother as your child would be
>better off without her daddy.
>
>You have to admit that that is quite a jump. A woman willing
>to beat the pulp out of her own child vs. a dad that, at your
>own admission, has never shown abuse toward your/his child.


No, that was not my implication and perhaps I should have been more clear about my confusion.  I've tried to back off of these boards.  I seem to have caused a great deal of upset and hurt and I feel bad about that.  Yet for those who are willing to give their time and opinions and points of view, I feel obligated to at least try to understand them.

I am not trying to sound rude or sarcastic with this.  I do not think it is a lack of eloquence on behalf of the author, but rather myself misinterpreting things, but I'm afraid I cannot understand the point that is being made.  At this point, while it seems everyone may be arguing the same side, there seem to be conflicting views or reasons behind it.  The statistics were set forth as "proof" that kids are better off with two parents, yet when I gave another set of statistics, it was argued that I shouldn't put so much faith in the numbers as humans and emotions could never be reduced to logic or statistics or numbers.  As far as the counter argument to my statistic site, I can offer a more detailed explanation as to what I meant and why the sources for these statistics however credible they may be, do not result in answers.  If anyone is interested in this, contact me, but I'm not here to get into an argument over numbers and figures and saw no reason to consume the board's time with it.

As far as the post that I responded to, I was honestly having trouble figuring out what was meant or what the overall message was.  Once again, I mean no insult to the author, I just don't think I am understanding something.

To draw it out a bit more...it has been stated that kids are better off knowing and being involved with both biological parents, yet this last one seems to be a sudden about face on that argument.

Or was it the point that bad feelings between the parents can result in maltreatment of the kids?  If this is the point in case, let me assure you that no matter what I may feel towards her father, I would never hit my children or act in such a manner.

Was the point that even a small amount of time spent with an emotionally abusive parent can severely damage a child?  The time has now been limited to 3 hours per week but it still seems to carry a very powerful and negative effect for the poor girl.  I can understand this, but as the general argument has been FOR allowing my daughter to spend time with her father, who has been emotionally abusive in the past, I don't think this was the point.

Was it the point that her life would have been better if it had included her biological father?  If that was the point intended, I don't think there is enough information to claim her life would have been better or worse.   From what we have been told, I'd say it was mom's abuse that was the problem.

It was also claimed that the abuse was a result of mom's attempts to hurt dad.  This logic would seem to lead one to the conclusion that if mom and mom alone had taken the girl, there would have been no abuse.  Yet I cannot believe this (as it seems this is the work of a person with serious problems and dad probably did little to cause these) and I do not think it is what is trying to be argued.

Was it the point that if she had not gotten the opportunity to know her mother she would have been more emotionally damaged and resent her father?

Was the point that the best parents for a child are those found through genetics?  Given the fact that of all parties involved, the most loving and caring parent seems to be the one who has no genetic ties to the child, I don't think that was the point being made.

As you stated, I have never claimed that her father was physically abusive towards either my daughter or myself.  Yet I have lived in both situations that were physically abusive as well as emotionally abusive.  Without a doubt if I had to pick one or the other, I'd take the beating any day.  Emotional abuse was way worse.  Unfortunately, this child seems to have been hit by a full dose of both evils.  However, it seems that much of the harm done has resulted in the emotional side of things.  That was something that my ex had down pat.  In my original post, I stated examples of emotional abuse, using children to hurt the other party, and children intentionally being turned against the other party.  Was the point of the post to warn me of the effects on children when these people are allowed to take place in a child's life?  Or was it the same message that has been carried in many of the other posts..."The other parent may be a jerk BUT we still firmly believe that our children are better off for having them in their lives." or "No matter what, we feel it is important and in the best interests of the child to know those individuals they have genetic ties to."

So no, I was not trying to make a jump.  I was simply trying to gain some form of insight as to what it is about the post that I am so obviously confusing.  Therefore, do you think the child was better off for having mer mother in her life?

[msme]

1. A child learns they are comprised of 2 parents.

2. If you do not allow the other one into the childs life, she will want to know why.

3. You were ask before but I do not believe I saw you answer, "What are you going to tell her when she wants to know who & where her daddy is." And she WILL ask.

4. No secret is safe. Someday, some well meaning friend or relative will tell her all the justifications you are spouting, now, to defend your position & she will hate you for it.

5. If you feel her daddy is not worth knowing, then she will feel that half of her isn't any good either.

6. The point of relating a bit of my family's problem was to let you see the kind of things that the idea of one parent trying to exclude the other one can cause.

Do I wish she wasn't involved? Hell, yes. Is that what I want? NO! What we do is hope & pray that someday, hopefully soon, she gets the help she needs to be the kind of parent she needs to be & that their children need.

Do I wish these kids didn't have to go through this? Of course. I would give my life to prevent it. But we can not dictate the path that life hands us. We can only do our best to smooth the bumps & pick up the pieces & make the repairs as we go along.

Consider teaching your daughter the philosophy of choices. Everything we do in life involves choices, from getting out of bed in the morning to eating properly to the kind of lives we lead. Everyone has to make choices & is ultimately responsible for the choices they make.

Then down the road if he doesn't live up to his responsibilities & your daughter asks why, you can say that You do not know why he is making these choices but together, you can pray that he learns what a terrific kid she is & make better choices.

The bottom line is that you can not protect her from everything in life that you do not approve of. How will she learn to be strong if you do not let her learn?

You never get a second chance to make a first impression!