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Author Topic: Affair Partner Overnights and Vacations  (Read 10521 times)

Catwoman

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Affair Partner Overnights and Vacations
« on: Feb 17, 2005, 03:23:37 PM »
My STBXH and I are in agreement regarding visitation except that he feels it is okay for his affair partner (whose involvement with his life ended our marriage) to stay overnight AND to participate in an upcoming vacation with our children.

Legally, does it hurt my position if she goes on this vacation with him and I still want a morals clause in our parenting plan regarding overnights with persons of the opposite sex?  

He has not told me that this vacation includes the affair partner and her children.  Should I write a letter to this effect stating my position so that if they do go on this vacation together, I have gone "on record" as far as this topic goes?

Cat


Brent

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RE: Affair Partner Overnights and Vacations
« Reply #1 on: Feb 17, 2005, 05:39:39 PM »

>Legally, does it hurt my position if she goes on this vacation
>with him and I still want a morals clause in our parenting
>plan regarding overnights with persons of the opposite sex?  

The courts don't care about this stuff, as it's not really relevant to the kids unless they're in real, live danger from this person.

You normally cannot get a morals clause. Stop trying to control his life- he's allowed to sleep with whoever he wants, like it or not. So can you, and you wouldn't want him telling you what you can or cannot do when the kids are in the house.



>He has not told me that this vacation includes the affair
>partner and her children.  Should I write a letter to this
>effect stating my position so that if they do go on this
>vacation together, I have gone "on record" as far as this
>topic goes?

Give it a rest and find something else to worry about. Making a huge issue out of this will only make you look petty and will NOT help your case- in fact it may hurt it. Let him live his life and you live yours. You don't have to like this person, but you don't have any control over the situation. Who he has sex with is NOT your business, even if the children are in the house. Unless they're doing it in front of the kids, you have no claim to control who he decides to date or what he does.



gipsy

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RE: Affair Partner Overnights and Vacations
« Reply #2 on: Feb 17, 2005, 11:41:11 PM »
what My feel is from being around this !!
   At trial I did bring up the fact that I did not want my son around whom ever The latest boy friend is etc ,And guess what / It [seemed] the judge did not Like the idea , But  I can  say there was no effect or ruling as a result of me saying that ,
    It all seems that the question is , How is this going to effect the children ,

Catwoman

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RE: Affair Partner Overnights and Vacations
« Reply #3 on: Feb 18, 2005, 10:34:39 AM »
Why are you so hostile?

kitten

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RE: Affair Partner Overnights and Vacations
« Reply #4 on: Feb 18, 2005, 10:58:14 AM »
>Why are you so hostile?

Because it is petty.  Like the many false accusations that alot of men have to deal with from vindictive ex's.  Please pick your battles more wisely.  Maybe the kids love her and her kids and are looking forward to the vacation.  The sooner you accept that he's moving on, the better off everyone especially your children will be.  I've been on both sides of this fence.  I know 3 children destroyed by their mother's jealousy and petty litigation. I also know how hard it is to accept another woman loving your children, but acceptance is the only way to make it ok for your children.  Mine are happy and love their Dad's gf and don't have to feel bad about it.  How about yours?


kitten

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PS:
« Reply #5 on: Feb 18, 2005, 11:00:24 AM »
I sure hope you did not tell your children that Daddy had an affair.  Not a burden children should have to carry for you.

Catwoman

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RE: PS:
« Reply #6 on: Feb 18, 2005, 11:08:20 AM »
My children (16 and 13) know about the affair.  Dad was not discreet, and this is not his first affair.

Why is it vindictive to want their father to spend time with THEM?  When they stay overnight with him, they babysit the GF's children while the two of them go out.  This has bred considerable resentment.  It's not that I don't want them to have contact with her, I just do not feel it is right for them to be exposed to their father having a girlfriend staying overnight while they are present.  He has them 6-8 night a month (HIS choice, not mine--he is welcome to have them as often as he wishes--he just doesn't wish very often), so I don't understand why this would be such an issue.  

I see someone, and I have no problems with him not staying overnight while my daughters are there (and I have them the majority of the time).  It is not the example I wish to set for them.

This is not an issue of moving on--it is setting an example for our children to follow.  They know full well what is going on behind closed doors.  They don't need to have their noses rubbed in it.  

Brent

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RE: PS:
« Reply #7 on: Feb 18, 2005, 11:51:31 AM »
>My children (16 and 13) know about the affair.  Dad was not
>discreet, and this is not his first affair.

So dad may be a jerk when it comes to interpersonal relationships. He still has the right to see whoever he wants (just like you do) and to have them at his home (just like you do) and to invite them to spend the night (just like you do).


>I just do not feel it is right for them
>to be exposed to their father having a girlfriend staying
>overnight while they are present.  

Key words: "I feel..." What you feel is fine, but it doesn't give you the right to dictate how he lives his life.

What if you decided you wanted a friend to stay the night? Should your ex-husband have the right to tell you that you can't do that?



>I see someone, and I have no problems with him not staying
>overnight while my daughters are there (and I have them the
>majority of the time).  It is not the example I wish to set
>for them.

And that's your choice, which is fine, but it's not his choice. Get used to the fact that you cannot control what he does. Like Kitty said, pick your battles.


>This is not an issue of moving on--it is setting an example
>for our children to follow.  They know full well what is going
>on behind closed doors.  

So....what's the problem? The kids know about it, so it's not like it's a secret. Your personal moral values are yours to decide, but not his. And it doesn't sound like he's doing anything harmful to the children. Again, what if you wanted your friend to stay the night? Should your ex-husband have the right to tell you that you can't do that?


>They don't need to have their noses rubbed in it.  

And maybe they don't need you trying to control dad's life.



Brent

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RE: Affair Partner Overnights and Vacations
« Reply #8 on: Feb 18, 2005, 11:56:03 AM »
>Why are you so hostile?

Why are you using emotionally biased terms to describe my post?

Apparently if you don't hear people telling you that you're right, it's "hostile". That's bullshit.

You didn't come here for advice, you came here for validation. When you don't have a chorus of people yelling "You go, girl!", then we're being hostile.

Well, you've got some learning to do, and you better face the fact that you will NOT be able to dictate who your EX-husband sees or when they're "allowed" to be at *his* house.

Would YOU accept this kind of restriction, having your ex decide who you can and cannot have at your home, and when they can be there?  I doubt it.

kitten

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RE: PS:
« Reply #9 on: Feb 18, 2005, 12:10:00 PM »
>My children (16 and 13) know about the affair.  Dad was not
>discreet, and this is not his first affair.
>
>Why is it vindictive to want their father to spend time with
>THEM?  When they stay overnight with him, they babysit the
>GF's children while the two of them go out.  This has bred
>considerable resentment.

IF in fact this really has bred resentment between Dad and the children, then that is something only Dad can change.  

>This is not an issue of moving on--it is setting an example
>for our children to follow.  They know full well what is going
>on behind closed doors.  They don't need to have their noses
>rubbed in it.  

Setting an example?  At 13 and 16, they already know what Dad's about and for that matter, you too.  Sounds like the only one with anything on their nose is you.  Don't get in the middle of your children and their Father's relationship, it's not your job anymore.  Offer guidance when needed and remember your own words "they know full well what is going on behind closed doors."  They don't need you to exasperate the "issue".

Catwoman

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RE: Affair Partner Overnights and Vacations
« Reply #10 on: Feb 18, 2005, 01:40:47 PM »
I am amazed at your ability to sense me out as a vengeful, spiteful bitch when you have never met me or understand anything about the mediation process we are using to end our marriage.  

Am I dictating who my STBXH sees?  No.  He can see anyone he chooses, and have whatever relationship with them he would like to have.  

Am I dictating how he will live?  No.  He can do what he pleases.

Am I asking for a parenting plan to include a restriction on EITHER parent having overnight opposite sex guests present in their home while the children are there?  Yes.  This is in the childrens' best interest.  

Any stipulation such as this made in the parenting plan APPLIES TO BOTH PARTIES.  Are you aware of this?  

I was hoping for a discussion of the issue, not a personal attack.

Brent

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RE: Affair Partner Overnights and Vacations
« Reply #11 on: Feb 18, 2005, 01:59:00 PM »
>I am amazed at your ability to sense me out as a vengeful,
>spiteful bitch when you have never met me or understand
>anything about the mediation process we are using to end our
>marriage.  

I never said anything of the sort. Please don't put words in my mouth or attribute things to me I never said. I never made any remarks along the lines of "vengeful, spiteful bitch", nor anything even close. It's interesting that you would choose to misinterpret my words that way.



>
>Am I dictating who my STBXH sees?  No.  He can see anyone he
>chooses, and have whatever relationship with them he would
>like to have.  

Except you get to control who is physically allowed in his home when the Sun goes down.



>Am I dictating how he will live?  No.  He can do what he
>pleases.

Unless he wants to have someone stay the night, then suddenly it's your business.



>Am I asking for a parenting plan to include a restriction on
>EITHER parent having overnight opposite sex guests present in
>their home while the children are there?  Yes.  This is in the
>childrens' best interest.  

You're like the people who want to pass anti-gambling or anti-whatever bills. They're never the ones who would actually be affected by the bill. You never hear them saying "Pass this law to stop ME from gambling!", it's always "Pass this law to stop THEM from gambling!".

Of course you want a provision like this in the decree because it won't affect you.


>
>Any stipulation such as this made in the parenting plan
>APPLIES TO BOTH PARTIES.  Are you aware of this?  

See above. You're seeking to control him through the courts. Cut it out. Deal with it, and move on, or spend the next 20 years obsessing over it and letting it drive you crazy.


>I was hoping for a discussion of the issue, not a personal
>attack.

You just don't like what you're hearing, and the fact that I'm not going to sugar-coat it for you.

TwoBoys

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RE: Affair Partner Overnights and Vacations
« Reply #12 on: Feb 18, 2005, 03:01:43 PM »
Im sorry, but this is ridiculous.

I was in a similar situation with my sons father, but you know what, its not my business.  Nor is this yours.

You had two children by this man, and you were married to him im assuming for at least 16 years.  I hate to say ti, but hes not endangering the children, and this is what you must come to terms with.

Now, with that said, the other thing that makes your request ridiculous is the fact that this would also make it so that he couldnt even have a new wife stay the night.  What if he should get married?  would it suddenly be ok?

What exactly are they being exposed to?  A new woman?  A relationship between their father and another woman that they already know of?  Overnights?  Im sure you two slept together for the duration of your marraige, whats so awful about it now?

Im sorry, you have bigger battles to fight.  If this is your biggest concerns with your childrens' father, then you ought to think about how lucky you have it.  I hear nothing from you about him or his GF mistreating or neglecting the children.  Therefore, there are no issues for you to be concerned with while they are at his house on his time.

Good luck.

TwoBoys...

gipsy

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get a grip!
« Reply #13 on: Feb 18, 2005, 09:48:12 PM »
My post was about me going to say TO THE JUDGE,  exactly ,what you are saying , Except I am the Dad and Its the mother that has had a few different boyfriends , I do not appreciate My son being exposed to these different boy friends ,
 I am In agreement with you BUT!!! I kept my post to the point , the POINT is the judge didn't make any ruling about this in My case !!! I was trying to give you that Info , I am not offended By your post , I am not here to make battles with you , Of all things I understand that all this is tough , I don't like the fact that the latest boy friend went to the school with my son on fathers night , This has been a problem with  Mom , And I dislike the whole Idea , But I also have to realise . And so do you !! In My case I said what I said TO THE JUDGE AND THE JUDGE DID NOT MAKE ANY RULING , tHIS DOES NOT MAKE ME HOSTILE  , I think you will get the same reaction if you took this to the judge , Sorry !
   I think you are doing good because you are letting the kids have there visits . I will warn you the end result that started to culminate In My situation , And Other people I know personally , NO matter who is wrong  kids will eventually get tired of all of this , And both parents No matter who is right or wrong ,

wendl

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RE: PS:
« Reply #14 on: Feb 18, 2005, 11:03:38 PM »
Come on now your kids are old enough to know that adults have over night guest,s they are exposed to this via TV, at friends houses etc everyday.

If the kids do not like having to babysit while at dads, they are old enough to talk to dad about this.

As long as he is not endangering the kids, it won't be a big deal in court, and IF you were to get it ordered I know a few who have it in their orders and they and their ex break that rule but no one give a crap as it is NOT endangering the kids.


**These are my opinions, they are not legal advice**

Kimberly9

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RE: Affair Partner Overnights and Vacations
« Reply #15 on: Feb 19, 2005, 03:51:41 AM »
Most judges won't allow the moral clause to go into the parenting plan.   Even if it is allowed into the plan, it is impossible to enforce.

It sounds like your stbxh already knows how you feel.  I don't think writing a letter will effect it one way or the other.

I would suggest you let this one go.  There are so many other more important issues to deal with.  

kitten

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Catwoman...
« Reply #16 on: Feb 21, 2005, 10:35:27 AM »

>Im sorry, you have bigger battles to fight.  If this is your
>biggest concerns with your childrens' father, then you ought
>to think about how lucky you have it.  I hear nothing from you
>about him or his GF mistreating or neglecting the children.
>Therefore, there are no issues for you to be concerned with
>while they are at his house on his time.


Sorry we all seem harsh, but twoboys is right here.  If this is your biggest concern about your childrens well-being, then thank your lucky stars.  Most of us here have been put in a situation where children we love are being abused and the court has stripped our parental right to protect them.  Imagine that.  

Davy

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RE: Catwoman is RIGHT...
« Reply #17 on: Feb 21, 2005, 02:05:29 PM »
Oh PLEASE !  Catwoman's concerns are very legimate and I certainly do not believe those opposing that view are in a majority anywhere especially with the presence of young teens.  This is not paticularly a prudish or moral view.  

Try thinking in these terms.  The children love both parents and all they've ever known is "mom and dad".  Then, on top of of the frustration and anxiety of the breakdown of the family, a REDEFINITION occurs and "mom and dad" become "Bimbo and Bozzo" which leads the children to more DYSFUNCTION and ABUSE...anger and rebellion ... then on to their own sexual exploitation, alcoholism, drug abuse, fighting, guns and knives, educational problems, .... bearing children out of wedlock (often for society to provide for), prison, suicides ... ... ...

In my particular case, I did not make my wife's living arrangement a big deal although I was keenly aware of the damage such a situation could cause the children.   My attorney must have mentioned to the judge (huge on juvenile delinquency) because the judge asked Bimbo about Bozzo and she replied that Bozzo was a family friend ...... I basically laughed knowning Bozzo had impregnated Bimbo's older sister and that baby had been put up for adoption (to save the family's good name).  

Without a request, the judge ordered that unenforceable clause.  I guess he figured since Bimbo refused to comply with any other clause or order one more "feel good look good warm and fuzzy" clause or order would not mount to a hill of beans.

One might say that since Bimbo, Bozzo, and the judge are out of control then it is understandable that the the kids are out of control.  Well, I DID NOT THINK IT WAS OK for the kids to be out of control and since it sure SEEMED I was "in control" I said so and did something about it.    


Brent

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RE: Catwoman is RIGHT...
« Reply #18 on: Feb 22, 2005, 08:11:53 AM »
>Catwoman's concerns are very legimate

Her concern may or may not be legitimate, but her intentions are not.

>The children love both parents and all they've ever known
>is "mom and dad". Then, on top of of the frustration and
>anxiety of the breakdown of the family, a REDEFINITION
>occurs and "mom and dad" become "Bimbo and Bozzo"
>then on to their own sexual exploitation, alcoholism, drug
>abuse, fighting, guns and knives, educational problems,
>.... bearing children out of wedlock (often for society to
>provide for), prison, suicides ... ...

We seem to have jumped from "having a guest overnight" to it being the basic cause of society's collapse. That's more than a bit simplistic, actually, but the fact is change happens.  (You forgot the part about "dogs and cats sleeping together, worlwide chaos,....")


Look, it's NOT realistic or sensible to draw up repressive, intrusive, and completely artificial "guidelines" for your ex-spouse to live by in their own home.

This is not a detriment to the children, and Catwoman should stop obsessing over who her ex is having spend the night. It's ridiculous.


kitten

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RE: Catwoman is RIGHT...
« Reply #19 on: Feb 22, 2005, 09:15:41 AM »
Yes, her concerns are legitimate.  However, stirring this up will only make it that much more difficult for the kids to adjust to life.  Some things are better left alone.  Davy, you sound very angry.  Sorry about your pain.

MYSONSDAD

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This will be slightly unpopular, but...
« Reply #20 on: Feb 22, 2005, 08:38:51 PM »
I am in the State of Illinois. In my State Statues, Cohabitation is referenced several times. Wording in such a way, it could be added to a parenting plan. Immoral Behavior is also one of the factors for child custody. But what constitutes Immoral behavior? Could be taken several ways. Depends a lot on the Judge.

This, of course, is not one of the main battles to keep at the forefront, but if they are in the statues, could be blended into a secondary issue. A mention in court?

I suggest, read your state statues and learn them well. Education is the key and States vary.

I feel, it is personal preference. My GF does not spend the night on my parenting time, but that is just me...

Vacations together would be a concern if all were sharing the same room.


"Children learn what they live"

Troubledmom

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RE: This will be slightly unpopular, but...
« Reply #21 on: Feb 22, 2005, 11:37:00 PM »
State statute will play a HUGE roll in the courts granting or denying a "moral" clause.

Additionally there comes into play here Constitional Rights. A parent who has been denied the companionship of another person based soley on their marital status... could be interesting to see what the courts would decide there...

TM

HeavenSent

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Morals? Missing the point...
« Reply #22 on: Feb 23, 2005, 08:53:16 AM »
It's funny when someone wants to stand on a big tall moral soap box that only applies to new relationsips the X might have.  No one ever says they want a clause stating that X can't gamble in front of the kids, or use foul language, or lie cheat and steal.  Why not ask that the X not be allowed to watch Sex in the City while the little ones are at home...that is much more of an education that watching Dad / Mom retire to the bedroom with BF / GF and close the door!

And to hit where it hurts...how can any of us preach traditional morals while the very core value of it all should be Mom & Dad together forever raising the kids in love, respect, and cooperation.  Sorry, but you already blew it!  (I did too.)    

When the most fundamental foundation is destroyed, you have to expect EVERYTHING else to change also.  You no longer have any right to influence what the other parent does.  You simply have no say-so. Period.  The only way to have any influence at all is to cooperate.  And that calls for some major sucking-up and a lot of hurt pride.  Most people don't have what it takes for that.

For example, Cat, your kids babysitting for X's GF is causing them to hold grudges against GF & Dad, and you don't like it because they should be spending time with either your or Dad.  How about you offering to babysit GF's kids next time?  I can almost hear the laughs! but  You would be helping your children, which should be the foremost concern.

Another thing. Kids create thier opinions based largely on us.  Why not say only positive things about GF and Dad.  Perhaps thier attitude would turn a lot more positive as well.  Again, you would be helping your children have a happier life.  But can you put your own hurt feelings and pride aside for the sake of the children?  Most people cannot.  

Just my opionions.
HeavenSent

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Stepmom0418

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RE: Morals? Missing the point...
« Reply #23 on: Feb 23, 2005, 10:32:47 AM »
Your post is very well said!!

The funny thing is that I have watched my exhusbands girlfriends kids for them.........so some people can put their pride and hurt aside and do what is best for their children. And then there are many others who cant.

I totally agree with your post!

Especially :Another thing. Kids create thier opinions based largely on us. Why not say only positive things about GF and Dad. Perhaps thier attitude would turn a lot more positive as well. Again, you would be helping your children have a happier life. But can you put your own hurt feelings and pride aside for the sake of the children? Most people cannot.

Catwoman

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RE: Catwoman is RIGHT...
« Reply #24 on: Feb 25, 2005, 05:14:12 PM »
I still find it amazing that you can divine my intent, my background and everything from just a simple post posing a question.

You even know I am obsessing.  I am impressed.


The facts are this, my friend:  my children do not need to be exposed to OVERNIGHT, unmarried guests of the opposite sex in their home.  Period.   Just as they don't need to be exposed to heavy drinking, recreational drugs or other things deemed morally or physically harmful.

Should either of us remarry, that is a legitimate relationship.  Until that time, I feel strongly that the parents should set a positive example and abstain from having overnight guests while the children are present.

Brent

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RE: Catwoman is RIGHT...
« Reply #25 on: Feb 25, 2005, 06:56:38 PM »
>I still find it amazing that you can divine my intent, my
>background and everything from just a simple post posing a
>question.

Well, what can I say- I'm an amazing guy.



>You even know I am obsessing.  I am impressed.

That's nice to hear.



>The facts are this, my friend:  my children do not need to be
>exposed to OVERNIGHT, unmarried guests of the opposite sex in
>their home.  Period.  

Why not? You make this claim, but offer absolutely nothing on which to base it. Why is it so bad for children to see a parent having a normal, healthy relationship with a member of the opposite sex? Exactly how does this harm a child? Be specific.



Just as they don't need to be exposed
>to heavy drinking, recreational drugs or other things deemed
>morally or physically harmful.

Yes, but having a relationship isn't morally or physically harmful- it's part of everyday life for normal people. That's what people do.




>Should either of us remarry, that is a legitimate
>relationship.  Until that time, I feel strongly that the
>parents should set a positive example and abstain from having
>overnight guests while the children are present.

What's not "positive" about a parent having a relationship with another person? How are the children harmed by this??

The thing is, you ARE obsessed with what your ex is doing and who he's going to bed with. You're taking this bogus "moral high ground" and it's as phony as a $9 bill.

So.....tell us --exactly-- what is so harmful to the children? The fact that they're seeing dad getting on with his life? The fact that they're seeing dad having a good, healthy relationship? Enlighten us.


Catwoman

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RE: Catwoman is RIGHT...
« Reply #26 on: Feb 26, 2005, 03:34:44 PM »
Brent:

It is well documented that female children (we have two girls) tend to get involved in premarital sex and/or abusive relationships faster and earlier when they come from homes where the male parent has left (as in this case).

That being said, I feel BOTH parents must do all they can to maintain a loving environment where premarital or extramarital sex is NOT a factor (i.e. no overnights with the opposite sex).

Our daughters' therapist has been an advocate of this becuse both girls are tring to heal from the trauma of betrayal and abandonment.  Both daughters have been cutting as a result of their father's running off with another woman.  I feel we must offer them the most stable, yet separate, environments we can.   The continual presence of another person at this point truly hurts them.  

They are at a vulnerable age with regards to understanding what a sexual relationship is.   Stressing that they should avoid sex at this age, and then illustrating that the parents can do what they please in this area is akin to telling them not to drink and drive, then tying one on and getting behind the wheel.

Please note that in my state, there is the option of restricting all access of our daughters to the other woman.  I did not choose this path; I only wish to restrict overnight visits when they are present.  And I will (and have been) abide by this myself.  


VAStepmom

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RE: To Catwoman
« Reply #27 on: Feb 26, 2005, 05:56:59 PM »
Catwoman,

I have followed this post from the beginning and I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you as well.  You say there is documentation that female children tend to get involved in premarital sex and/or abusive relationships when their father has left, like your ex did.  I believe these cases are referring to girls that come from fatherless homes, not cases like your girls that still have their father.  He is still an active parent in thier lives, so they do not necessarily fall into this high-threat category of girls because of that.

I do understand your concern.  In fact, if it were me, I'd probably be doing the same thing as you.  However, that does not make it right.  You have convinced yourself that this situation is much worse than it really is.  I could understand if dad had a new "friend" over every other night.  But from the sound of your post, he is in a monogomous relationship with this woman.  She may very well become the girls stepmom one day.  You just don't know...

That said, I say pick your battles.  You seem to be getting defensive in your posts lately.  Remember why you came to this site in the first place... to get opinions from "uninterested third-parties."  And I only mean uninterested in the sense we are not personally involved in your case.  Everyone here wants to help, but we can only do that if we give our honest opinions.  It's up to you to open your mind...

Good luck you you!

Brent

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RE: Catwoman is RIGHT...
« Reply #28 on: Feb 27, 2005, 12:18:34 AM »
>It is well documented that female children (we have two girls)
>tend to get involved in premarital sex and/or abusive
>relationships faster and earlier when they come from homes
>where the male parent has left (as in this case).

No, that supposed factoid is not well documented at all. As VA Stepmom said below, this appears statistically in girls where the father is absent, which is not the case here. If the father is present and allowed to take part in parenting the children (whether he is in the same home or not) this issue almost disappears.

So, please go back and re-examine the information you found. If it does indeed state what you claim, please post the link as I suspect a fair number of people would like to have a look at it.




>That being said, I feel BOTH parents must do all they can to
>maintain a loving environment where premarital or extramarital
>sex is NOT a factor (i.e. no overnights with the opposite
>sex).

Why? You keep stating this, but you won't (or can't) say *WHY* this is bad for the children. I've asked you this several times and gotten nothing in the way of a defendable answer.



>
>Our daughters' therapist has been an advocate of this becuse
>both girls are tring to heal from the trauma of betrayal and
>abandonment.  Both daughters have been cutting as a result of
>their father's running off with another woman.  I feel we must
>offer them the most stable, yet separate, environments we can.
>  The continual presence of another person at this point truly
>hurts them.  

This sounds like a load of self-serving hogwash. By this reasoning, they shouldn't be allowed to be around *anyone* other than you or him, because of the "trauma".  



>
>They are at a vulnerable age with regards to understanding
>what a sexual relationship is.   Stressing that they should
>avoid sex at this age, and then illustrating that the parents
>can do what they please in this area is akin to telling them
>not to drink and drive, then tying one on and getting behind
>the wheel.

More baloney. Your ex isn't telling them to have sex, he's simply moving on with his life and you're desperately trying to come up with some reason that will allow you to dictate how some key parts of his life are going to be run. These children don't live in a vacuum, and your self-serving attempt at "shielding" them from normal human relationships is ridiculous.

You said "Stressing that they should avoid sex at this age, and then illustrating that the parents can do..."

The fact is that children don't get all the rights and responsibilities that an adult does, so what an adult does may be inappropriate for a child but not for an adult.




>Please note that in my state, there is the option of
>restricting all access of our daughters to the other woman.  I
>did not choose this path; I only wish to restrict overnight
>visits when they are present.  And I will (and have been)
>abide by this myself.  

If you get an agreement like that written into your decree, it will only prove that you're an overly-controlling ex-spouse. And good luck getting it enforced- I got news for you- what's written in the decree means very, very little in the real world. Ask anyone here if you don't believe me, or ask an attorney- they'll tell you that getting "crap provisions" like this enforced are next to impossible.

Another thing it will do is ensure that you and your ex NEVER get along, and that you will fight constantly until these kids are 21. That sounds exactly like what you want, so enjoy the next 10 or 20 years, and don't say nobody told you.




gipsy

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the humble opinion of A former moral guru
« Reply #29 on: Feb 27, 2005, 03:37:22 AM »
I was a card carrying member of the the Saintly brother hood then I became a guru , I found that once a Real guru . Its very difficult to Be around average people , I then Became a bit self rightious , So the Card carrying Saintly Guru's came by to tell me that I too had fell short of the glory , And By all means this was no  infraction Agianst My Membership staus , I certainly went by all the rules , Except one and that was Judgment , and self righteous , There certainly was no Infractions iether Of me or My  EX partner , Since we claimed our selves to  Members of the society of the righteous  Community , That Is except for the Occasional philander or three , Then there was the Pre marital and gratuitios Sex that Only card carrying Members can excuse themselves for , But then there is a time for the WIPING , Of the slate and all things are forgot , And Only righteous thoughts prevail ,  With not even the slightest memories  Of the blossoming of our Hormonal growth ,
    There was a great Man , That said
     "  Let he who has not sinned throw the first stone "
          So Of every one involved In this lenghty Debate , I ask who has not yet sinned , Any one a bonafide Virgin ?
   Then about supposing things about kids or teen agers . HAH ! Yeah right ! Kids develope an attitude At or aroung the teenage years , And let me tell you I have been through . this , I showed My stepdaughters diary to My atty ,  It had stuff written about suicied , And Hating her parents etc , My atty said This is sort of normal for Young teen agers

nosonew

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RE: Affair Partner Overnights and Vacations
« Reply #30 on: Feb 27, 2005, 01:21:40 PM »
The hardest part of divorce is having two separate homes, two separate lives, with the common denominator being the children. There will be different rules, situations and experiences in both homes.

My best advice is to just realize and accept that you cannot control anything that occurs at the other home.

You don't have to agree with what he does, and certainly don't have to like it, but you do have to accept that you can't control it.

Your girls have been brought up with your morals and values for many years and this situation will not make them do a 180. These things are instilled at a young age, just as honesty, empathy, etc are.

Have faith in your girls. Trust them. Enjoy your life.  Good luck.

sweetnsad

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RE: Affair Partner Overnights and Vacations
« Reply #31 on: Feb 28, 2005, 12:01:30 PM »
My opinion, after all is said and done?

Move on.  You cannot control what Dad does, nor should you.  He is free to live his life, as he chooses, and if he chooses to sleep with his girlfriend while your children are visiting him, then so be it.  It's not like your kids are very young and not sure what is going on....your kids are VERY AWARE of how things are....they aren't stupid.

I just don't understand WHY you would want to put such a clause in your order....to me, it sounds like a nasty way of trying to control your ex's life, even when you aren't together.  The kids are not being abused or mistreated....that's a huge relief, as much as you don't know it.  Try being on the other side of the coin where you wonder if your kids are being beaten or fed.  MUCH BIGGER CONCERN.

You're apart now....let it go.  There are much bigger fish to fry, my dear.


dearsirena

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Your constant obsession, control tactics, fretting, etc...
« Reply #32 on: Mar 01, 2005, 11:44:10 AM »
will, and I mean WILL cause more harm to your children than if they know dad has a new partner and it is sexual.

I am sure your children have overheard you talking to friends, family or ?? and this will certainly create more anxiety within themselves.  You can't be a comfortable person for them to be around if you are constantly worrying about petty stuff such as this and trust me kids are NOT stupid.  I can only hope for their sake that you don't bad mouth their father and his choices in other areas.

Children stay healthy when there are no parental conflicts, bashing, etc. going on.  Let him go on with his life and you do the same.

I am sorry you feel pain but for the kids sake you need to get yourself healthy and this isn't the way to go about it.  Have you considered "divorce adjustment" counselling?

Sirena

BehindBlueEyes

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RE: Affair Partner Overnights and Vacations
« Reply #33 on: Mar 02, 2005, 09:13:33 PM »
Just my $.02; but the judge in my case didn't see me living w/ my boyfriend as an issue when deciding custody.  I'm living w/ my boyfriend and my ex was remarried.  The GAL came in & said my situation was better and between that and the fact that DD wanted to live w/ me then that's what the judge ordered.  

If your children resent their father for making them babysit his GF's children while they go out then the children need to talk to dad about this.  They're 13 & 16...they're old enough to speak their mind to him about this.  

You can try and ask a judge for it; but I don't see it being an issue unless you can prove that the kids being in contact w/ Dad's GF is going to put them in danger.  They've already been around her and nothing bad has happened.  No abuse.  No neglect.  A judge will not most likely stop it now.


catherine

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very nicely said
« Reply #34 on: Mar 03, 2005, 01:56:18 PM »
and I agree.  The original poster seems to be in a lot of pain and she doesn't need to be criticized or people to be so "harsh" on her.  Letting go of that control in the other house is a real hard pill for some in the process to follow, especially when it's new.

ivehadit

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it's an issue...
« Reply #35 on: Mar 03, 2005, 03:43:50 PM »
depending on where your court case is. I have friends who live in the "bible belt" in western TN, and several other states along that "line" and morality is a HUGE issue in some of the smaller county jurisdictions.

A guy I know was subject to supervised visitation and scorn from the court for merely dating while his divorce was in process and meeting up with the woman and all of their respective children at a McDonalds. You have to wonder what would have happened to his custody had the woman slept over.

We may live in the USA in 2005, but not every square inch of this country is as progressive thinking as many on this board, and that has to be taken into consideration when someone brings "morals" to the table for question.


BehindBlueEyes

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RE: it's an issue...
« Reply #36 on: Mar 03, 2005, 05:07:18 PM »
I wasn't much further from there...My case was heard in northern GA.  There was a morality clause in the temporary orders (which I followed & he didn't...even tho he was the one who had it put there); but the judge in the final hearing didn't even consider it an issue.


Brent

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No response (I know I'm shocked!)
« Reply #37 on: Mar 10, 2005, 11:41:49 AM »
No response to this....why am I not surprised? Well, maybe it's because Catwoman's supposed "facts" are pure bullshit.



>>It is well documented that female children (we have two
>girls)
>>tend to get involved in premarital sex and/or abusive
>>relationships faster and earlier when they come from homes
>>where the male parent has left (as in this case).
>
>No, that supposed factoid is not well documented at
>all. As VA Stepmom said below, this appears statistically in
>girls where the father is absent, which is not the case here.
>If the father is present and allowed to take part in parenting
>the children (whether he is in the same home or not) this
>issue almost disappears.
>
>So, please go back and re-examine the information you found.
>If it does indeed state what you claim, please post the link
>as I suspect a fair number of people would like to have a look
>at it.

 

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