I AM the evil female...super long post

[Kitty C.]

Good or bad, it's not because HE wants it, it's because SHE needs it.  BIG difference.

And to quote Dori on 'Finding Nemo', 'You can't protect them from everything.'  And she does not have 'just a bit of shared genetic material', she is HALF him and HALF you.  Because they DO 'share genes', it is vital that they be allowed to develop a relationship.  Like I said in my other post, you cannot dictate how they develop it, it is for them to decide.

As scary as it may seem, you cannot try to protect her from what you 'might think' would happen.  Worse things happen in family courts every day, what with drug-addicted mothers maintaining custody with the court's blessings.  Now, THAT'S putting a child in obvious harm's way, but the courts won't go for presumptions.

As bad as this may sound (and believe me, I dealt with this way too long), if he asked for visitation, you will have to put her in what YOU perceive to be harm's way.  And pray like hell that nothing happens.  

I found out a LONG time ago that my 'protection' of my child is really very limited.  I cannot completely control every aspect of my child's life, even his safety, and I shouldn't be allowed to, either.  If I did, I'd end up with a wimpy, scared, paranoid adult child, afraid of his own shadow and incapable of doing anything on his own.

My mom told me a LONG time ago that the hardest part of parenting for my fahter was to let us kids go out and make mistakes.  He was VERY protective of us kids.  And me being the baby and Daddy's girl didn't help much!  It all started when I was 3 and wandered away from the house....in the middle of August when the corn was 6 feet tall.  Dad called the neighbors and they were just getting ready to walk the fields when I popped up out of the oat patch.  Dad wanted to ban me to the house, but I pitched a major fit and he realized that he couldn't sit on me forever, he had to let me find my own way, even if he thought something 'might' happen to me.

Youd child is still an infant.  I do not recommend any long term cisitations, maybe a week at a time.  Graduate it over the course of the next few years, adding a week or so every year.  There are MANY ways you can set up a parenting plan, even for infants and long distance.

As hard as it may sound, you need to displace your own feelings about him in order to develop a plan of vistation.  Start SLOW and graduated.  Start with supervised if you need to, but you better have solid reasons (proof) as to why you feel it's needed.  Sit down and work out a plan for the next 18 years, taking into consideration different ages of your child and different stages of life.  Put in contingency plans if he fails to hold up his end of the agreement.  Put in all the safe-guards you feel is needed.  But do it for your daughter's sake.  Because SHE will be coming to you later in life asking the hard questions and YOU are the one who has to look yourself in the mirror and answer her.  Think about that.

[Kitty C.]

'>If you move out of state, know that your daughter will be
gone
>from you for extended periods, just as she will be away
from
>him.

While it can be done, is this HEALTHY for a young child?
Right now she has no attachment to him.  To begin a
relationship would be to introduce her to a life of
constantly being away from at least one parent or the other.
This is what I am not convinced is wise.'

We're not talking about her flying back and forth between you and him at this age, that's absurd!  But is it EVER healthy for a child to be separated for EITHER parent for any length of time?  NO.  This is atime ot get creative and come up with a plan that will suit her needs as an infant now, plus expand and grow with her as she grows.

Heck no, he has no attachment to her, but then he hasn't had a chance to, either.  And I'm not pointing fingers at you, that's just the way it is.  I didn't have an attachment to my own son until after he was born, but because his dad and I lived together, he was able to build JUST as strong a bond with DS as I did.

Bottom line:  they both have to have the opportunity to build their relationship, no matter how much you like or dislike him.  Not after she becomes an adult or when she's old enough to understand, or even when she's old enough to fly, NOW.  Because if not now, the rest doesn't mean shit.   It can be done, with a lot of creativity, compassion, coordination, and compromise.  It will only work as well as the people giving to it.  This is your child's LIFE we're talking about..........

[RainGirl]

>A few months later, I asked DS what it would have been like if
>his dad would have died while he was with me and he said 'Oh
>Mom, it would have been HORRIBLE!'  He will never forget that
>he got to say goodbye to his dad.  Then I asked him if he ever
>had to do it all over again, would he want to stay here, to
>play ball, go camping, and all the other fun things that his
>friends were doing over they summer, or go to his dad's, and
>he said 'No question, Mom, I'd go to Dad's'.  I think that
>says it all.

Thank you for sharing your story.  It does give me hope that if this is what needs to be done there is a chance at things working out eventually.  I must admit that there are many similarities between our situations and I just read ahead a bit (I've been trying to answer these in order and I'm still behind a bit!).  I too got lost in a corn field when I was three!!!  No Amish communities, however!

Anyway, as was something I pointed out in some of the other posts, they have no attachment so far.  They simply haven't had the exposure so far.  She is just now at an age where she is beginning to show preferences for certain people and form her own attachments.  Your son was 5 by the time separation was much of a concern.  By then he had formed a relationship with your ex.  

When I was 12, I bonded very strongly to an elderly woman who lived a few houses away.  I took her on as a grandmother type and used to visit everyday for hours.  We'd sit and talk endlessly.  Eventually she passed away, but to this day, I consider her a very special part of my life and I am thankful that we were able to spend the time together that we did.  My point being that your son could have just as easily bonded with a person down the block and grown just as attached to that person and once gone, been just as thankful for the time spent together as he was for the time spent with his father.  Why do I need to send my daughter across the country and disrupt her summers and home life for this kind of relationship?  If it was to continue a relationship, I could justify it, but to start one?  She could just as easily do so with the family and friends in our area.

>And in my mind, she IS just as much a parent to DS as I am.

Point in case, it isn't genetic ties that make family.  

>Now, I know that everyone's situation is different.  But I ask
>you to take a look at your own relationship with your father.
>If it was good, don't you want that for your children?  And if
>it wasn't, don't you want them to have what you didn't?  Yes,
>she's very young right now, and they may not have much of a
>bond, but that takes TIME, it's not something that happens
>instantly.  Because of the age of the child, she won't be able
>to fly by herself until she's 5 anyway, so you will need to
>make some kind of arrangements for LD visitation until then.
>All I'm saying
>is, regardless of the relationship you had with her father,
>your daughter deserves to get to know and love her father.
>Everything and anything you can do to make that happen can
>only be good for her.  It is up to her and her father as to
>where their relationship will lead.  

>Even DS knows that his dad wasn't a saint, just as he knows
>I'm not one either, LOL!  But I have NO doubt that he loves
>each of us fiercely, just as much as I love my father.  Your
>daughter is half of her father, please don't deny her that.

Say you adopted a child and you and your family happily raised this child as your own for three years.  I can't imagine that that bond would be any stronger if the child was biologically linked to you.  Yet after three years, you received a phone call from a man.  He just learned that his girlfriend was pregnant and gave the baby up for adoption.  He now wants to know this child and would like to share custody with you and in fact is willing to pay for the plane ticket if you would be so kind as to send the child out to spend a month or two with him each summer.  How do you react to this?

If your husband has issues with fertility and you end up using a sperm donor...do you owe it to your child to share custody with the donor so that your child can build a relationship with the other half of the gene pool?

My point is that right now, the ONLY thing they share is genes.  There are far too many adopted individuals in my family for me to believe that genes are an ultimate connection between two people.  But are genes, as the sole reason, sufficient cause to seperate family members, deprive a child of the normal kid summers that you described, and cause the heartache of seperation from one parent or the other?  Yes, your son would have given up his summers and done it all over again, but what if you ex lived down the block or across town.  Wouldn't that have been preferable?  Best of both worlds.  Right now I have a choice as to who she bonds with.  Why set her on a road to a life torn between families and homes and constantly missing one parent or the other?  Genes?

As proof that genes are not the ultimate connection, ask your son if he was to find out today that the man he spent his summers with was not actually his biological father, would he have regretted knowing the man, knowing "Epmama", knowing the kids?  I'm betting he still wouldn't want to have changed things.  If you were to find out today that there had been a mixup at the hospital and your son is not really your son, would you love him any less or regret having raised him?  So if it is the relationship that matters and not so much the genes, why can a child starting with a clean slate, not form an attachment with a person under more desirable conditions?

[RainGirl]

>There are three sides to every relationship disagreement
>   1.His side
>   2.Her side
>   3.The truth
>
>Children love both parents unconditionally.  Children need
>both parents.  You will be hurting your child if she is not
>given a chance to develop a relationship with her father.
>

This seems to be a popular opinion, but I'm searching for the reasons behind the logic.  WHY?  Will I also be hurting her if I do not let her build a relationship with my second cousin and my grandmother's siblings, the couple down the block, the old man from the church, the lady behind the counter at the grocery store....  The ONLY thing her father has over these others is genes.  And being that genes are their only tie, is that a strong enough reason to disrupt her childhood, tear her between two homes, and deprive her of a normal childhood?

[nosonew]

I can relate to your post, however, I was married to a guy like yours, to the T. (Perhaps they are related?) Anyway, I left the relationship and my son was very young...however, even though he was a jerk to me...he is a great dad. He dotes on his son, works with me regarding punishments and other things, and since our divorce 13 years ago...we are actually "friends".  I too believed my ex would be great for "someone", but it sure wasn't me.  We just brought out the absolute worst in each other, and after our break up, he realized many of his mistakes, and although it was too late for us...he has changed some, and his new wife of 6 years has to do her best to keep him in line...but bottom line...HE IS A GREAT DAD...  Although he is still a crappy husband, he loves his son...

I do believe you should finish your degree, move to a new state, and just take whatever visitation that is set.  It is just part of being a parent that is not married to the child's other parent.  Whether married or not, that is the way it is.  Is it hard, yes.  In the long run, is it worth it, yes.  

Bless you for asking and seeking opinions.  You do what is in your heart.  Listen and read, and figure out what is best for you and your kids.  Always remember, she is someone elses kid too.  My best wishes, nosonew.

[janM]

...you have already made your decision.

He is not just a sperm donor, he is not the guy down the block. He is definitely not father of the year. But he does have rights, whenever he chooses to go to court to get them in place. And your daughter has the right to know him.

Is a "normal childhood" having 2 parents in a loving home? She will never have that. Neither will most of the kids that are the focus of this site. They are accustomed, as are my 4 grandkids, to having 2 households at various times and a whole circle of extended family and "step" family. I was raised in an intact home. My grandkids are not. But they are happy and healthy and have a lot of people to love them.

You say your daughter is at an age where she prefers some people over others. That is normal, but if she doesn't get to know him now, it will be that much harder later on. There may not be a bond now...but how can there be if you deny it?

Of course, he may not bother going to court for his rights, and you will not be obligated to letting him see her. If he does, you will have no choice in the matter unless you can prove him unfit.

Do as these people are suggesting. If he goes to court, suggest a supervised, gradual schedule while they get acquainted and you get an idea of his parenting skills. If he shows his unpleasant side, deal with that through the court.

IMO, you are just going to do what you've already made up your mind to do. I don't think we've convinced you that there are alternatives.
I hope, for their sakes, you'll give it a chance.
If not, good luck to you and your daughter.

[RainGirl]

>That being said, even though he may be this way towards you,
>he may not be this way towards your child.

I realize this and as much as I worry about it, I can also accept the fact that he may not be.  As I said in my original post, the emotional abuse only happened with me, not others in his life, at least as far as I could see.  Emotions aside, I have trouble believing that the situation itself would be the best thing for a child.  Being shipped back and forth across the country, living between two homes, two families, two lifestyles and living in a situation where one family or the other is constantly missed.

I simply can't believe that is healthy and while it may be possible to pull it all off, is it BEST?

>If/when you two have a court ordered parenting plan, specify
>in the order that pick up time is at xx and the receiving
>parent will wait no longer than 30 minutes, if that parent
>fails to show (without making prior agrangements agreed upon
>by both parties) then visited is considered forfitted at
>during this weekend (something like that)

I think that these are excellent suggestions and if things do head that way, I will be sure to include things of this nature.  Thank you.

>Each child deserves to see both parents.  Should you ex choose
>not to exercise his visitation that is his loss, if he fails
>to exercise it for a long period of time, then request
>supervised visits until the child and father reunite.

Forgive the ignorance, but what would the purpose of supervision be and by 'reunite' do you mean reform the bond or actually coming together again?

>There are many deadbeat parents out there believe me, my ex is
>one of them, he made the choice not to see our son or pay
>child support, now he wonders why our son will not call him,
>hmmm.
>
>Now my dh on the other hand is a wonderful father to his
>children and my son.

Further proof that it is the relationship, not the genes that matter.  So if my daughter currently has no attachment and no bonds to him, why is it necessary to begin a relationship with him and expose her to a less than desirable situation simply because they share genes?  If it is possible to create and maintain a relationship and bond just as strong to another individual in the place where she lives, wouldn't that be desirable?

[RainGirl]

>...you have already made your decision.

This is no secret.  I made a decision two months ago when I told him I wanted to stop all contact.  In my initial post, I said I was not 100% comfortable with my decision and seeking reasons why it would be best to involve him in her life despite the negative aspects that the situation would include.  So far I have become a bit more at ease with the potential of it and having heard of others who have done it with some luck has helped, but what I am still seeking is reason that it is BEST.  Not possible, but best.

Why do genes make him such an important figure in her life and in fact, so important that she should be subjected to a life torn between two states and families?

>He is not just a sperm donor, he is not the guy down the
>block. He is definitely not father of the year. But he does
>have rights, whenever he chooses to go to court to get them in
>place. And your daughter has the right to know him.

Given the fact that the ONLY thing they share at this point is genes, why would she have any more need or right to know him than a sperm donor?

>Is a "normal childhood" having 2 parents in a loving home? She
>will never have that. Neither will most of the kids that are
>the focus of this site. They are accustomed, as are my 4
>grandkids, to having 2 households at various times and a whole
>circle of extended family and "step" family. I was raised in
>an intact home. My grandkids are not. But they are happy and
>healthy and have a lot of people to love them.

I believe that the normal childhood I was referring to was in response to another poster who said her son gladly gave up the normal summer life (little league, camping, etc.) that his friends had in order to spend summers with his father.

>You say your daughter is at an age where she prefers some
>people over others. That is normal, but if she doesn't get to
>know him now, it will be that much harder later on. There may
>not be a bond now...but how can there be if you deny it?

Right now she is beginning to form bonds which is why this comes across as a pressing matter to me now.  If I am able to find reason that a relationship with him is important and necessary enough to subject her to the negative effects of a split life, then I should allow this soon.  However, if the relationship is not important enough to maintain over state lines, it is better for both of them not to enter into in the first place.

>Of course, he may not bother going to court for his rights,
>and you will not be obligated to letting him see her. If he
>does, you will have no choice in the matter unless you can
>prove him unfit.
>
>Do as these people are suggesting. If he goes to court,
>suggest a supervised, gradual schedule while they get
>acquainted and you get an idea of his parenting skills. If he
>shows his unpleasant side, deal with that through the court.
>
>IMO, you are just going to do what you've already made up your
>mind to do. I don't think we've convinced you that there are
>alternatives.
>I hope, for their sakes, you'll give it a chance.
>If not, good luck to you and your daughter.

Thank you for your time and input.

[SLYarnell]

Hopefully this goes to court and you get a judge that MAKES you give this man reasonable access to his child!
I think you should be ashamed of yourself for even considering keeping her from him and you will one day regret it if you do.  Your daughter could easily hate you for what you plan to do to her.
Like Jan said you have made up your mind so the die is cast, hopefully you wont have one of those statistics like we hear about in all the reports when she grows up.

Good Luck you are going to need it!

[darkspectre]

Okay, so you're the evil female - now I'm going to be the evil male.

Having read through the lion's share of these posts, I found myself thinking less and less of your puported plight, and focusing more on what I can only describe as a very disturbing trend among the women who chose to respond.

Let me warn you right now that I am going to generalize for convenience of prose, and to you women who may be the exception - I apologize in advance.

Many of you tell a very woeful tale of mental, psychological and physical abuse, but as one respondent so eloquently put it: There's three sides to every story - Yours, his and the truth. I suspect that in most cases, were the fathers allowed to respond, we'd be entertained with a much different version of what actually took place in the relationship.

Now if you're going to disagree, please don't insult everyone's intelligence with the convenient response of, "That's just not true!" I actually have a better idea. Show this site to the father you threw under the bus, show him your post, and give him an opportunity to tell his side of the story.

To quote an oft used phrase from our youth . . . I double dare you.

More importantly, I find it interesting (disgusting is probably more apropos) that the pervasive mentality among women is that you, and you alone, have been blessed with the divine power to facilitate, or deny, a relationship between the children and their father. This is very evident in not only your initial post, but in many of the responses you received.

So I'm asking you: Where do you get off placing yourself in a superior hierarchical position of parenthood than him? Do think that because you went through the birthing process that that in some way entitles you to dictate when, or if, the father can see his kids? Are we to buy into the nonsensical theory that because you and he could not get along that he doesn't love his children and should be excommunicated from their lives?

By whom? You? If so, you must have quite a favorable opinion of yourself. But why not, the courts certainly have.

Here's a thought to hopefully distract you while you're plotting to ruin his life: Maybe you're the reason the relationship didn't work. Maybe you're unfit to ever be in a relationship of any longevity. And maybe, just maybe, you're an absolute bitch who looks in the mirror and sees someone who is invisible to everyone around you.

I was married for a number of years and I can tell you for sure that the last five years of that marriage I hated the sight of her.  I have my reasons, and I also accept partial blame, but I can tell you without hesitation that it never affected how I was as a father to my two children.

A lot of women claim that they are sympathetic to the abuses suffered daily by fathers in this country, but it's nothing but empty rhetoric, and will remain as such, until women recognize that they are no more important, nor any more fit, to be a part of their children's lives than the fathers.